00:47
S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show with me, your host, Eric Moffett. Today, I've got two small interviews for you. The first is with Puppy Developer Trainer, Claire Crewe. We're going to be talking about the rollout of cooperative Care to Puppy Care. So we're going to be talking a little bit about what cooperative care is and how it is going to be kind of rolled out in the whole kind of from puppies from eight weeks until 12 months when they're with their puppy carers and what that might mean for the future of seeing eye dogs who will be going out to clients in the future.
Then I'm going to be playing an interview from Peter Greco from Vision Extra, talking about the Golden Harness Award announced at the Dog Handlers Australia Conference in August of 2023 that was awarded to retired Seeing Dogs staff member Harry van Dijk. So we want to share that with you guys as some of you will have worked with Harry throughout his career.
S2
Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy my interview with Claire and Peter's interview with Harry. Hi, Claire. Thanks for joining me on the show today.
S3
Hi, Harriet. Nice to be here.
S2
So we're going to be talking a bit about cooperative care, which is pretty exciting. But some people who haven't heard about the term may be completely confused. What is cooperative care?
S3
So Cooperative Care is a new program that we have just decided to bring out, and it's designed to basically have the dogs participate in their health care. So they're actually active participants rather than unwilling recipients. So the whole point behind the cooperative Care program is to give the dogs an element of choice and a little bit of control over the things that happen to them in that environment.
S2
So what's the purpose of that?
S3
Yeah. So basically the purpose of it is to reduce the stress. You know, yourself going to the doctors or going to the dentist or having anything done medically can be a little bit stressful and we have a lot of control and say over what happens in those environments. So basically what we're hoping to do is give the dogs some of that ability to choose and by doing so, increase their confidence, build their trust and reduce the stress that's typically associated associated with veterinary procedures or examinations.
S2
So which dogs at singles are currently learning cooperative care behaviors?
S3
So, so far we have introduced it to the dogs on our breeding program as breeding dogs. They do tend to go through a few more procedures than the average puppy. So we initially rolled it out to the breed of dogs on the program, including boys and girls. And now we're going to start rolling it out to the puppy program now that we've learnt from the things that have worked and the things that haven't worked and what we need to do, we're going to introduce it to the puppies.
S2
What are we talking about? Introducing it to the puppies. Is that going to be age dependent or will the youngest baby puppies begin learning it now?
S3
Yeah, everyone will start learning it and we'll all do it at our own pace basically. So you'll work with your senior dogs contact who will introduce it at a time that's appropriate. But all of the behaviors are quite simple and generally pretty enjoyable and relaxing for the dogs to do so there's no particular age requirement.
S2
What kind of behaviors are the puppies going to learn?
S3
So basically there are three behaviors that the pups will learn. The first one will be yoga mat stationing, where really all they have to do is plonk themselves on a yoga mat in any position they can be in, a sit down or a stand. The only real criteria is that they are on that yoga mat and then we'll build all the other behaviors on top of that. So everything we do for cooperative care will be associated with the yoga mat. So the yoga mat will come out and the dog will go Woohoo, corporative care time! And hopefully they'll go time to chill and relax because we don't want it to be Woohoo, let's all go party and do some operative care. It's let's have a nice relaxing time and practicing properly.
Okay, so the yoga mat stationing will be the first one. After that we will have a chin rest, which is a lovely behavior that we can use for meditating. We can use for examinations so we can get the dog in any position we want on that yoga mat and ask for the chin rest. And the beauty of a chin rest is we can easily transfer it to other things. So you start by teaching it into your hand so you can easily transfer that to rest their chin on your lap or on chair. So we can use it to do body, give them vaccinations, do their nasal kennel cough, which is a really useful one. Check their ears and their eyes and all that kind of stuff.
The other one we will also introduce is a rollover where dog basically lies on its side with its head down on the yoga mat. And the purpose of that is so that we can examine their underside. Essentially. We could even do nail clips as well in that position. If they stay there, we can play with their feet and do their nail clips. So they have lots of different applications. So the rollover was initially brought in for the breeding girls so we could do their ultrasounds. So it just gives really easy access to their underbelly.
S2
And is one of the benefits of the yoga mat, so that it's something that's like, I guess, generalise it to a few different places so that if you take that yoga mat elsewhere, it's not like, Oh, I'm having to start these things afresh again.
S3
Yeah, exactly. So it becomes a bit of a cue for the session that you're about to do. So just like when you're getting ready to go for a walk and get the lead out, the dog goes, Oh, we're going somewhere. The same with the with the yoga mat. You get the yoga mat out, they go, Oh, we're going to do cooperative care. And if you get the yoga mat out in, say, the garage instead of in the lounge room, they go, Oh, we're going to practice quality of care here. They may still need a little bit more support in the new environment, but it really does give them a head start and gives them a really good a good cue to understand what's going on.
S2
Yeah, because I guess otherwise, like sometimes it's that it's that the vet table plus the restraint procedure. It's just a lot of things If they're then just being kind of like thrust into this place and then expect it to like, be cool and easy about it.
S3
Yeah, that's right. We expect a lot of our dogs and most of them tolerate things really, really well. But there's there are a few out there that find it quite challenging. And so the ones that don't find it that challenging will also benefit as much as the ones that do find it challenging because we are just making it a lot more of a relaxed process and being a little bit more strategic about how we're introducing things For.
S2
Some of those dogs that do already have have learned, say, negative associations with some of these types of things, like, you know, having ears checked, that type of thing. You know, is it still teachable?
06:56
S3
Yeah. So in the past, one of the how I first got involved in doing the cooperative care was I was told one of the dogs I was training was really, really, really reluctant to have their nasal kennel cough vaccination done. And the vet team wanted some advice on to how to do that and so wanted to try out this cooperative care side of things. So I taught her the chin rests once she knew the chin rest really, really well, I was able to then use my hand to lift her nose up in the air. Once she was used to that, I was then able to introduce things touching her nose while she was in that position and at any time she had. The option to opt out.
And that's where the real key to this comes in, is when the dogs have that choice to opt out. They are more likely to opt in because they know that if they say, Oh, no, I'm not ready, you will stop. You know, I would liken it to going to the dentist and they're about to drill a hole in your tooth and you go, Oh, no, no, just wait a second. I'm not quite ready. I'm not quite ready. If they stop and give you a moment to let you gather your thoughts. You're then going to go, okay, I'm good. Go now. Whereas if they go, No, stop it, you'll be fine and just go straight in your mouth. You're never going back to that dentist ever again.
So it's a similar kind of concept as you're giving that dog a little bit of ability to say, Oh, I'm not quite comfortable, I'm not quite ready, just give me a moment and then they'll come back into it. And by giving them that, it's massively rewarding, giving them that choice to to make that decision and to let you know. So it's really important when we do go through the whole process involving the cooperation side of it, which is separate teaching to the behaviors. It's really important that we maintain our side of the bargain, which is if you're uncomfortable, I'll stop what I'm doing when you tell me to.
But in in cases where you have, you know, they've got an ear infection, you can't not medicate it. What you want to really do is take that separate to the cooperative care training. So you wouldn't be doing that medication on your yoga mat. You wouldn't be trying to do any of these things until the dog is fully trained and fully understanding the process of the cooperative care procedures. If they've only just learned a chin rest, but you haven't started to teach them how to say yes or no. There's no point trying to do it because as you say, you're only going to poison that kind of training by withdrawing from the trust account rather than before. You've got enough balance to accommodate it.
S2
And the trust account is kind of interesting because that as well. Um, is kind of related to how well you know the dog too, right? So if, you know, like, if it's a dog that you've, you're really familiar with, you're going to have more success in teaching these behaviors than a dog that you haven't been working for as long.
S3
Yeah. And it's not necessarily to do with time. It's how you've interacted with that dog in the past. Like a trust account is every time you have a positive or good interaction with the dog, you're making deposits into that trust account. Any time you do something, whether it's accidental, you know, sometimes you'll trip over the dog and you'll stand on their toe and they go, Oh, what did you do that for? You're withdrawing from the trust account in those occasions.
So this is why it's really important to have a very good relationship with your dog. So again, the vets are going to probably struggle to have those big balances in the trust account because they don't know the dog very well. Um, but that's why we do the cooperative care, because you then have that opportunity to build that trust account in a short period of time by giving them the choice.
10:09
S2
So a large part of the purpose of this, I guess, is it's just it's for the welfare of the dogs. It's not necessarily, you know, just you know, it doesn't necessarily make our lives quicker when we're kind of medicating, but it's for their kind of well-being. How do these behaviors improve the welfare of our dogs?
S3
Yeah. So it's very much to do with the welfare and it can have really useful benefits to the clients as well. You know, if you've got a dog that will happily put their chin onto their lap ready to be medicated and will stay there and they're comfortable doing it, they can medicate them really easily. You know, if the dog lifts their chin up, they know that the dog's not quite ready. We'll just pause a second and then we'll come back to it. Yes, it might take a couple of seconds longer, but across the board, it's not going to be you're not going to be spending an hour medicating the dog where you should only be doing five minutes. It's still not going to take a long period of time.
But as you say, it really does have huge welfare benefits for the dogs. And really, what really good benefits for the relationship between you, the dog, the vet team, their relationship with veterinary examinations, their relationship with different environments where veterinary examinations may occur and it just builds their trust and confidence. So yeah, it has huge benefits across the board.
S2
And it's cool to think that if we're starting now with the puppies, is that in, I guess maybe a year, year and a half, then some of those dogs will be graduating with some of that knowledge behind them, especially, I guess if that's kind of something that's consistent across dogs, hopefully, you know, the vet team and all of those other kind of health providers can do the same, which is pretty cool.
S3
Yeah, exactly. And it's it's something that's taking off more and more in the broader dog training community as well. So there's there's vets out there that pride themselves on being fair, free or force free and things like that. So, you know, if you can work with a really good vet in your local area or the clients can work with really good vets in their local area, they will help you train those things and help maintain that that cooperative sort of care behaviors and make the whole process so much more enjoyable and less stressful for everyone because there's nothing worse than taking a super stressed dog to the vet. And it's not fun for the vet. It's not fun for the dog, it's not fun for the handler.
So if we can build that into our training, as you say, from now, we're going to, you know, hopefully have dogs that are going to be a lot more settled and comfortable in those environments.
12:31
S2
Yeah. And honestly, the less that I have to chase dogs around with like ear syringes, the better. I have done it before and it makes me feel really awful. And there's no way of saying to the dog, I'm so sorry, this is for your own good. Yeah, just don't get that.
S3
Exactly. They don't understand that we're trying to be helpful, but, you know, they just see that it's scary and it's stressful or it hurts. So, you know, by doing it this way, that element of choice really gives them that confidence. And you don't end up having to chase them around the room, which is not what we want.
S2
Yes. It's just not that fun. It's not a good way to get a step up, you know.
S3
Not it's not. Not at all.
S2
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show and and looking forward to the rollout of this. Yeah. Very exciting project for kind of puppy development to it to be working on.
S3
Yeah. Thanks, Harriet. So for those that are listening, the the program will be rolling out over the next few weeks. So mostly August and September, we will be sending some information out via email, but a lot of the action will be happening on the carers Facebook group. So if you're not on the group yet and you want to be, you know how people can go about doing that.
S2
Yeah. If you're a if you're a carer with us, then you get access to these amazing resources and you get to help train your puppy with these behaviours and said volunteer email address can can give you a hand or your puppy trainer with any information or direct us to help you join the Facebook group.
S3
Excellent. Thanks Harriet. And all the resources will also be available on the online landing system that we have now. So anyone that doesn't have access to that yet again get on to said volunteer and see if you can get yourself enrolled in that. There's a lot of really good resources on their videos and including very shortly all of the information regarding cooperative care.
14:19
S2
I've been listening to this show on Virgin Australia Radio. Hope you enjoyed my interview with Clare talking about cooperative care. If you are a puppy carer with Virgin Australia kissing my dogs, make sure you reach out to your puppy trainer for more information on that and check your emails. Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed hearing about what goes behind the scenes at seeing dogs. Now I'm going to be playing a clip from Peter Greco's show Vision Extra, talking about the Golden Harness Award that Harry van Dijk was awarded at the Dog Handlers Australia Conference. So without further ado, here is a different voice. This is Peter Greco talking with Harry van Dijk at.
14:52
S1
Dog Guidelines Australia just had their very successful conference and one of the highlights was the announcement of the Judith Killen Golden Harness Award. And this year's winner is Harry van Dijk and Harry's on the line. Harry, welcome and congratulations.
S4
Thanks, Peter. Thanks. Yeah, it was a real honour. So yeah, thank you for that.
S1
Now, I believe you weren't actually at the conference, but you got a call to sort of say you've won.
S4
I didn't go to the conference, but certainly got a call and was able to everybody was able to hear me online and yeah, and I received the award.
S1
I reckon a number of people at the conference listening in would have probably had something to do with you over their time.
S4
Oh, definitely. Certainly over my years I've done work in most states of Australia. Think about Northern Territory's. About the only state I didn't get to visit but visited clients in a lot of other states, But probably in the latter part it was more so in, you know, South Australia, Tasmania, Victoria.
S1
How did you get started in the industry, Harry?
S4
Well funnily enough when I left school I was looking for a job and at one stage wanted to be a vet and, and didn't quite get the grades to get into uni for to be a vet. So off I went to look for a job and was thinking of something like a forestry worker or I don't know, something like that. And so as you did in those days, you went to the Commonwealth Employment Service with, with your mum and dad or your mum. My mum came along and we said to me, Oh, well what do you like to do? And said, Well, I like to be outdoors. I'd prefer not an office job or like animals, like just helping people and doing things like that. And then they said, Oh, hang on a minute, here's one apprentice seeing dog trainer. What do you think about? And so I thought, Oh yeah, that sounds interesting.
So I went along to the interview and went into the office and there was a lady sitting behind the desk and well, who welcomed me and started with the interview and then was sort of wondering why she wasn't very responsive in some ways, but fairly spoke very well. And then all of a sudden I noticed the dog underneath the table and said, Oh, look, is that your dog? And she said, Yes, I'm totally blind. No. Yeah. So that was Phyllis Grace and the founder.
S1
Are you kidding? Wow, that's amazing.
S4
Seeing eye dogs. Cool. Yeah.
S1
That is sensational.
S4
Yeah. And after training with her, she was so very pleased with me and then offered me the job. And I was with Lady Nell for about 12 years and then for different circumstances. Not because I didn't love the work, but for other reasons. I left and started working with my father, who was a plasterer. He just said, Well, come and work with me in case you can't find anything else. And if you like it, you can keep doing it if you don't find something different.
So yeah, I worked with Dad and he taught me the skills of plastering, and then I ended up taking over the business and he retired, then passed away in the mid 90s and then, yeah, took over his business. And then almost 20 years later I got the call and it was from the then CEO of Seeing Dogs Australia who was Mr. Peter Goebel, yeah, at that time, and Peter remembered me from the past, but he rang me and started the conversation by saying, Oh, Harry thought I'd give you a call wondering if you're sick of plastering. I had done the odd job for the school in the in the meantime for Mrs. Grayson and she'd wanted me to come back on the board. And at that stage I wasn't ready. That was used well years before that.
And then, yeah, so Peter said a lot of the clients have said, Oh, see if Harry will come back. So I said, Well, I want to see that the organisation has changed and is moving forward. And by that stage they'd moved, there'd been the name change of. From Lady Nell, seeing dogs school to seeing her dogs Australia. And they'd moved from Malvern the year before to the premises where they are now in Kensington. And so I went along and chatted with the instructors at the time and had a look at the facility and was very pleased and somewhat excited about what had they had had achieved and how things were moving on from the past and then make the decision, Yes, I would go back. And so that was well, last year in that was in 2003. And then in last year in December, I made the decision to retire after 19.5 years back at seeing dogs.
S1
It's an incredible story.
20:03
S4
And in that time, you know, started I had to redo a lot of my qualifications because things had changed in the early years. There was no international guide dog Federation that hadn't started yet. And so I had to qualify to be qualified under that group. So I had to go back and do extra modules. I did my orientation and mobility course with Arbib and got that qualification as well and then became an instructor. A senior instructor was credited for the work I'd done in the past, which they were able to find records of and then continue my work.
And then at one stage I worked as a client services manager for a number of years and then moved to a regional well. The South east region was based at the Dandenong Office of Pigeon Australia as a regional senior instructor working in the field, largely working with clients. At that stage I wasn't training dogs in the latter years so much, but still working with dogs but not doing the most of the training.
S1
Gee, that's an enormous compliment, Harry, to have been asked back and sort of clients requested you back. That must make you feel pretty proud and pretty good about yourself.
S4
The reasons why I made the decision to go back because I felt, well, no. Why? No, I'm not. I didn't enjoy plastering. It was hard work. And, you know, but it did give me a lot of aching knees and sore hips and things like that. It was heavy work. And very dusty and all that. So for that reason, that was for medical reasons. I was happy to go out walking again. But it's certainly my main focus has been the clients and my love for working with people. And when you get, you know, that sort of said to you that the clients wanted you to come back, and that certainly helped me make the decision to come back. But at the same time, that's made my made my decision to retire more difficult.
S1
I can imagine.
S4
Because it meant that I wouldn't get out there and and meet with the clients anymore, as I did in the past. But now everybody, everything has has its time. And I really felt it was time to pass the baton to those junior staff that have come through and really shown that they have the skills and attributes to be good instructors, to pass the baton, that they can continue the work that needs to be done. Yeah.
S1
What about some of the changes that Harry that took place from the first time he went then as Apprentice to, you know, even 20, 20, 21 when you were finishing up, can you sort of talk about some of the changes that you noticed?
S4
Yes. Well, it was a very different era. In the early days, the hours you had to work was a lot longer where you had to even we had a duty night one night a week, had to sleep over. That was my night to be on duty. I had to do the kennel work that night and look after the clients because that was the night the house keeper had off. And that was a night the kennel attendants had off.
So but we had a much smaller number of dogs at that stage. I think there was probably maybe about 20 dogs in kennels at the time. So it was a matter of toileting those dogs in the evening and first thing in the morning before the kennel attendants arrived. And then the the clients, you would get their supper for them and made sure they were all in their rooms and not misbehaving or anything like that.
And then help organise the breakfast in the morning before the housekeeper started again about, you know, late morning. So that was part of the work. That was part of your job. And then we we did a lot of extra work. There was a lot of shows and fetes and things like that that you had to go to to do demonstrations. On weekends. And yeah, the budget was very tight in those days. When we had a young family. At that stage when I left again I had three young children by that stage. And yeah, so bringing home the bacon was important too.
24:34
S1
How do you feel when you're out and about just going about your day to day life and you see a dog guide with their with their dog? I mean, how do you kind of look?
S4
I know from experience the difference it can make. And and if a dog is working well, it's because the client is working well. In other words, they know what they their dog can do. They're giving the dog the opportunity to do its work and they're supporting it as they need to in what way they can. But they're also saying, I'm putting my trust in you. But at the same time, they have to be in control. It's like a pilot can put it, you know, switch to applying to autopilot. But he's still watching the controls. He's still there.
So it's the same with the client working with the dog. If a dog is working well, it's because they're they're in control, even though the dog's doing the work. So it's an absolute joy to see that. And irrespective of which organisation the dog came comes from. When I see one on the street, it makes me proud in a way that I've been involved in that process. But it's really makes me happy that I know that person's achieving their goals. They're getting to do what they want to do. Using the mobility aid of their choice. Because no dog's not for everybody.
You know, there are some clients that would never want a dog and they've never chosen a dog and may probably in most cases or in some cases may not be suitable to work with the dog because of their lifestyle, because of their temperament. I don't know for all different reasons. But of course, there's many that have never considered a dog and probably many of those people would really benefit if they went down that track. In terms of clients being eligible for dogs, I always felt that people always had the right to fail. In other words, it's something that they should always have a go at. If they if no, that was their dream. And with the support of instructor staff, that's their job, to do their best to try and get that person through the program.
But if they if it doesn't work out for some reason, at least they've had a go and it didn't happen often. But there were cases where after at the end of a certain or after a couple of weeks, we we had to say to a client, look, it's just not working out either. The person just was really struggling to to show those control skills, even though we would try with the training to cater it, particularly to that to the needs of that particular person. In some cases they just said, well, sorry, I've done my best, but it's just not working out and I don't think a dog's for me. I've realised now after doing this.
So in those cases, you know, we would say, Oh, well that's a pity because we've spent their time and effort with that person, but that was worth it. Now at least that person knows now and the dog is not lost because the dog can pretty much in all cases be re matched with another person. So there's no harm done in that regard. But at least that person had that opportunity. And then so then we could offer support through our names to, you know, brush up on cane skills if they don't have them and things like that.
S1
Harry, we've got to leave it there. We're right out of time. But congratulations again, just a few minutes we've spent with you. We hear how caring and how passionate you are about it. And just before you go, I must also say a very big congratulations to Erika Webb, who won a golden Paw for the great work that she's done with Right Hands Australia.
S4
So yeah, I wasn't aware of that. Erika is, definitely deserves that award and she's done an amazing job over the years. Yeah.
S1
Congratulations again. Thank you. Should be very proud of what you've achieved.
S4
Yeah. Thank you. And thank you for your work too.
S1
And that's this year's winner of the Judith Killen Golden Harness Award, Harry Vanderjagt.
28:39
S1
Have you been listening to this show on straight radio? I hope you enjoyed my interview with Clare Crewe, [indistinct] talking about Co-operative Care and Vision Extra's Peter Greco talking to Harry van Dijk about the Dog Handlers Australia Conference Golden Harness Award.
If you'd like to find out more about seeing our work, we do. You can help head to our website at Vision Australia-dot-org. Don't forget that you can hear more episodes of this thing just radio show on Omni or your preferred podcast provider. Or you can listen to a number of other great Vision Australia radio shows, including those hosted by Peter Greco. Thank you for listening and don't forget to tune in sometime next week for another episode of this radio show.
