00:10 S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. I've got two interviews for you today with lots of tips from our two excellent guests. First, I've got puppy development trainer Paige John coming to chat - free running tips, keeping pups and dogs, social time positive, happy and safe. Then Chris Edwards, General Manager, Corporate Affairs and Advocacy, is going to give us some quick tips for dog handlers about advocacy, flying, booking accommodation, going to restaurants and taking taxis and rideshares so you and your seeing eye, dog or dog guide can enjoy this holiday season out and about.
Now let's get started chatting with Paige about freerunning. Hey Paige, thanks for joining me on the show today.
00:59 S2
Thanks for having me.
01:00 S1
Could you please start off by introducing yourself?
01:02 S2
Hi, everyone. My name is Paige and I'm the Geelong Puppy Development trainer.
01:08 S1
We're going to talk a little bit about free running. What is free running and why is it so important?
01:13 S2
So free running is just when puppies get to play together off lead and don't have to work. Usually it's best to have it in a enclosed space so they can be safe. It's really important. So then they get time to be social. As we all know from going through the pandemic, we all went a little bit stir crazy being in our homes and being away from our friends and family and not getting that time socially with our favorite people. It yeah, didn't vouch well for anyone's mental health. And it's the same for dogs. They're really social creatures and they need that time when they're not working like our seeing eye dogs do. So having that time to just be a puppy and just get to play with their best friends is really good for not only their mental health, but also their fitness as well.
02:01 S1
I'm guessing if you don't have another dog at home too, I mean, free running is still. You can free run with your dog as a person. Different. But... I'm guessing there's still some value in, in a dog kind of doing their own running themselves.
02:14 S2
Yeah, definitely. And just getting time to be with their own species. Um, so in terms of seeing eye dog training, I think it's really important because if the puppies never get to play with other pups or other dogs, then they become a bit like a jack in the box. So whenever they see another dog, they get really overexcited, um, and just want to go and interact with them, which interrupts their focus and interrupts their seeing eye dog training. So if they get that time off lead, um, to just be a dog, then it really does help with their focus when they're on lead in their jacket with their handler.
02:50 S1
I guess it's a little bit like the novelty of it sometimes. You really can tell when a puppy has never spent time with another dog before, because it's almost like, Oh, I don't get it, it's a friend, but I don't understand. You can kind of see the cogs turning sometimes.
03:02 S2
Yeah, even just learning those social skills from when they're really young and how to interact nicely with other dogs, not to be rude in any kind of way. That's something that's important for people to realise as well. Sometimes you might put dogs together and they just don't get along, and it might not necessarily mean aggression. But one dog might just not really be that into it. And that's like people, you know, you might hang out with people that you might think might be your friend, or you might go on dates with people that sound promising and it just doesn't work.
Like, please don't put the dog in that situation again. If you notice they don't get along with that dog or they're not comfortable. That's okay. There might be other dogs that they get along with better that make them feel more comfortable. It wouldn't be nice to hang out with someone who ignores you all the time, or yells at you all the time, or gets up in your space and doesn't listen when you tell them to go away. And it's the same, same for the dogs.
03:55 S1
Is there any other reason why it might be important for dogs, especially younger puppies, to have that social time?
04:00 S2
Definitely. As I mentioned, just learning how to play nicely in terms of being a seeing eye dog when they come back for formal training and they live at the kennel facility for a minimum of four months, we like to kennel them with a friend as well. If they have never been around other dogs, it can be challenging to match them with someone else because usually those dogs are extremely enthusiastic and the other dogs may not appreciate that. And then they don't get a break because there's so much novelty around having a dog in their space all the time, so they try and make the most of the party 24 over seven, rather than having any time to rest.
But if they know how to hang out with another dog and they know how to switch off when around another dog, um, that is really helpful for the kennel staff to match the puppies together.
04:50 S1
So when you think about it too, even beyond that, handlers might have other dogs at home, whether that's their pet dogs or another retired dog, and potentially especially a retired dog, probably doesn't want the new young guy in the face. Yeah.
05:05 S2
No. That's right. Once they've retired, they're in their golden years. And they're. They're too old for that. They just want to relax. Maybe have a friend to chill out with, maybe play some gentle tug with. But they don't want to be wrestling generally.
05:20 S1
So... what are some things to consider about public free running places like dog beaches, parks and asking other puppies?
05:28 S2
With a seeing eye dog puppy as much as you possibly can in closed spaces. So if you go to a dog park or an enclosed oval. Another alternative could be like an enclosed tennis court or a netball court. As long as you are very respectful of the people who would play sport there, you know, obviously picking up after your dog, not going when there's people actually training for their sport or leaving any mess behind. Yeah, please be respectful there. And then in terms of beaches and things, Yes, I take my dogs to beaches, but I'm just very careful with dog beaches and dog parks. When I turn up, I like to go and assess the situation myself before I put the dogs in that scenario.
So I like to watch the other dogs and see how they're interacting with each other. You might find that there's a dog that's maybe bullying the other dogs, or is a bit too full on for the other dogs, so it's always good to whether you do a few laps with the seeing eye dog, or go and check it out yourself before getting the dog out of the car is always a good idea before putting the dog in that scenario where they could end up in a bit of strife.
06:38 S1
So potentially as well you're looking at things like vaccinations too, which you might not think about, or even with some of our puppies being entire, slightly more complicated to. And the other thing that I think about would be actually the fact that sometimes our puppies are rude.
06:53 S2
Yes, our puppies are young. The puppies in our program, they're usually under 12 months. They're very enthusiastic. They're learning how to socialize. Just like our children need to learn how to socialise and learn their manners and all those things. Learn how to share, etc. so please don't take your seeing eye puppy to any high volume dog areas before their 16 week vaccine, and it needs to be a week later once it's marinated. They can go to those places. Please don't take your puppy if it's unwell because we don't want to spread anything like gastro or kennel cough to to those high volume dog areas as well. And yes, please be mindful if your puppy is not desexed, which I know we delay desexing with a lot of our pups for later in case we would like the dog for breeding purposes.
So just keep in mind that adolescent males can attract attention from other entire males, as Harriet mentioned, and it might not be wanted. Attention. And of course, entire females may also attract attract attention that we certainly do not want. So just just things to be really mindful of.
08:01 S1
Definitely keeping an eye on the girl in your care when they reach that 6 to 7 month plus mark.
08:09 S2
It's tricky. Every girl is different, so anywhere from six months, but up to 12 months they could come into season. So just watch them cleaning themselves, any swelling of their vulva or any change in their behavior. Maybe they're becoming a bit more clingy to you, and that could indicate that they may be close to a season. And yeah, definitely don't recommend going to a park at those times.
08:33 S1
So what are some alternatives to dog parks or public dog spaces like beaches?
08:38 S2
I actually really recommend to my carers to meet up with friends or meet up with other carers and go to someone's backyard. You can introduce the dogs out the front on long leads to each other, so we can make sure we're all friends before we go off, lead in that space and then they can have a play, just the two of them, and you don't need to worry about unknown people. Unknown dogs. Whether the other owners are going to be responsible for their dog. If their dog is doing something that you would prefer, it wasn't. So that's my preferred method. And then we can make sure that we're only mixing boys and boys together and girls and girls together just to take any of that out of the equation.
And I also encourage a training walk beforehand. So whether you go for a walk together side by side and practice your dog distraction beforehand, maybe a 20 minute walk and then a 20 minute play in someone's backyard, and that's more than enough, and they'll sleep the rest of the afternoon.
09:32 S1
I guess the thing with that walk, too, is making sure that they're nice and neutral and then, you know, not pulling or lunging otherwise maybe might be an indication that they'll be a bit foolish together.
09:41 S2
Yeah. Or even if one dog is really not interested or moving away from the other dog could indicate that they're just not comfortable around the other dog and not going to want to wrestle with them.
09:52 S1
So when you're looking for some buddies for a dog or a puppy in your care. What should you look for? And I guess, you know, covered a little bit of, like, the gender, but even, like, you know, do you want the same age or different ages or...?
10:03 S2
It's hard to say. It's hard to blanket rule. Every dog is different. Some dogs are very enthusiastic, and a nine month old Labrador male may not be gentle with a ten week old puppy on our program. But then again, some puppies know the difference with the little babies and they lie down to play with them, which is lovely. So if you've got a puppy that's quite gentle and not super enthusiastic with other dogs, then they could be good with really any age. But if you've got a really enthusiastic high energy puppy in training, then you may need to go for someone who's of similar age and size, or someone that's a bit older who may help them learn the ropes with doggy etiquette.
10:48 S1
I guess as well. It's good to consider the friends that you have, and potentially if you have someone who has that good manners teaching older dog. And I know you said kind of ignoring you know, you don't want to be constantly ignored, but potentially some sort of like, neutral interaction isn't terrible either.
11:02 S2
Yeah. That's right. So if you have friends with dogs, they don't have to be seeing eye dogs as long as they are vaccinated and well. And also if they would appreciate or tolerate an enthusiastic puppy in their space. So sometimes the older dogs may just let the puppies know they're not interested by moving away or looking away or a little growl. And then if the puppy listens, awesome. And then they will play with them when they're playing nicely. They're our great elder teaching dogs, but some are not that tolerant, and that's very fair enough, especially if they've got any pain or they haven't been brought up around puppies. So just things to keep in mind and chat to your friends about before introducing the dogs. In an off lead scenario.
11:48 S1
When you are observing some of the play, what are the signs or the body language that you might look for that would tell you that it's nice and positive?
11:57 S2
So what I would be looking for is that both dogs are wanting to engage with each other, so moving towards each other, but they're both what I would call loose in the body. So their legs are not stiff, their tails not stiff and upright. You know, they're wagging, they're bending their elbows. They're doing things like play bowing. They're taking it in turns with chasing, wrestling and being gentle with each other. So if they're mouthing, they're not not to say savaging, but, you know, some can get really into it when they play. They're the main things. And even in terms of the tail wagging, a good sign that the dog is feeling neutral is that their tail is parallel with their back. So it's just the the line of their back continues along their tail. That's a good sign that the dog's feeling good about the interaction.
12:48 S1
I guess it's one of those things too, that it's kind of knowing your your dog too, because even some of them, the tail carriage is quite different. Like, one of the puppies that I have at the moment. Her tail is naturally a little bit higher up. She's quite perky. In that case, those signs might be slightly different depending on the dog that you're talking about.
13:06 S2
Yeah, that's right, I would just be watching for if the dog had like a flagpole of a tail. It was really stiff and they were holding it upright and then their legs were really stiff, their elbows weren't bending and the tail wasn't really wagging. Then I would be just cautious with that.
13:23 S1
That's one of them. But what are the some of the other body language signs that you might look for that are negative?
13:28 S2
So if the dog or any of the dogs are wanting to avoid each other. So if they're moving away, looking away, not like not interested, not wagging their tail if they're heckling. So if the hair along their spine is raised, even if they're enthusiastic about the play and moving towards the dog, it can be a sign of feeling uncomfortable if they're stalking the other dogs or if they're laying low and creeping towards them. This is pretty common in working breeds like Border Collies and Kelpies. It can be some dogs instigating play, but it also can be a bit of herding or chasing behaviour which other dogs it can make them uncomfortable if another dog is pinning a dog to the ground and it's not fair, so they're not taking it in turns.
The tail flagging that we talked about, and then their chest would be puffed out as well to make themselves look really big. If the dog is unsure, the tail might be tucked between their legs or even just straight down if they're cowering, so sort of ducking their head between their shoulders. Resource guarding. So if there's a dog at the park that has a ball with its owner, just be mindful, because sometimes the ball only comes out at the park. And if another dog goes, wow, that looks great, can I play with that ball? They may say, this is my special treasure and I don't want you touching it so they may growl, lift their lips to show their teeth, bear their teeth, which all those things can lead to biting. And the last one, which is not generally a sign of aggression. It can just be o
verexcitement, but can also be if the dogs are entire, is when male dogs in particular will whine and then put their head on the back of the other dog to proceed to mount them. Yeah, that's not necessarily meaning that he wants to go on a date. It can just be overexcitement and girls can do it too. But it is rude. So we don't want our dogs practicing that behavior, but they also may not whine and put their head on their back. They may just go straight for it. Over stimulation, over excitement, over arousal, having lots of feelings and not knowing what to do with them.
15:41 S1
And I know people used to talk about it as a dominance thing, but it's not necessarily that either, right?
15:46 S2
No. Not necessarily.
15:48 S1
It is very complicated because there are so many different signs and it's you've gone through all of these things and it's sometimes context or it's like a combination of all of the things, right? Like even when you say, you know, a dog, like showing their teeth, some dogs will also show teeth with a wiggly body and the this big waggy tail. And like we are playing and we're like, you know, air biting or something like that. Yes. So it's very confusing, isn't it?
16:12 S2
In in scientific terms, Harriet, that game is called bitey face.
16:17 S1
Oh, is it? Oh, that's... the science. The experts of the labs. Yes. Yeah.
16:21 S2
No, it is. It is hard. Some dogs do play harder together. Especially when they know each other. They gain confidence. My girls can be very rough with each other, but they won't do that with others necessarily. Which, thank goodness, because it wouldn't be appreciated, I don't think. But the main thing is, are the dogs matching each other's energy and is it fair? So are both dogs enthusiastic about this play? Are they both being chased or both laying on the ground and then the other on top, and vice versa with the wrestling? Or is it always one dog being chased or always one dog being pinned to the ground? Just things to... watch out for.
17:01 S1
So when you are, I guess, looking at some of those negative signs and you're starting to be a bit suspicious that it might be going less well, when should you be intervening?
17:11 S2
So I would be calling the dog back or going to collect them. If you see any of those negative signs from either dog. So whether it is your seeing eye dog in training that's in your care, your pet dog or the other dog that is there, if they show any of those signs, I wouldn't necessarily rely on the dog's recall in those scenarios. Even if it's positive play, they may not come back because it's exciting.
17:39 S1
The brain is elsewhere.
17:40 S2
The brain is elsewhere. And if we've only practiced recall in the backyard where it's just you and the dog, and we haven't practiced around distractions and different places. They may not do it. So I would go like call the dog, try and I would collect them and put them on a leash and get them to calm down. So even if they're showing that they're really excited and the other dog is showing it's tolerant, but they're like not super into it, then I would call your dog away, put them on a leash and let them just calm down. And whether you decide to try again or you move on and find a different dog that matches your dog's vibes.
18:13 S1
I think it's an interesting point. Like you said, you might let them have a second kind of chill for a bit. In that case, would you do something like kind of try and reengage your dog and actively try and get them to chill out? Or are you more like ignoring them?
18:27 S2
Yeah. So depending on what the dog needs in those instances, it's pretty exciting. So they may not want to sit still. So try to get them to sit and they may not want to if they're not feeling safe they may not want to sit. So just moving. So if you're walking away they can get their energy out. You might notice them do a big body shake. That's them shaking off their feelings, whether they're good or bad, whether it's excitement or over arousal or fear. And they come back to baseline. Good dog. And then you can try again, whether it's with that dog, because they're both just over enthusiastic, or whether it's with another dog who may potentially be more gentle or maybe more enthusiastic and match your puppy's lifestyle.
19:06 S1
And are there any other tips for play or things to consider when we're talking about free running?
19:11 S2
If you have a puppy that is particularly mouthy or likes to mouth other dogs, you could always try giving them a toy to hold in their mouth while they free run as well, so they can run around with their friends but not hold their friends in their mouth, which is not always appreciated by the other dogs either. That's something that you could consider. I would also recommend taking special treats if you're seeing Eye Dog is not on a special diet from your said contact or a vet, then you could always try some special food to encourage the recall around distractions. So whether that's boiled chicken or little bits of chopped up carrot liver treats. My favorite is squeezy peanut butter. Stick with one. See how their tummy goes.
And that could be something that they only get when they come back in those scenarios where they could choose not to, because there's so much excitement happening around them.
20:16 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. That was my interview with puppy development trainer Paige John about free running.
Now I'm going to be joined by Chris Edwards, general manager of corporate affairs and advocacy at Vision Australia. And he's going to be talking to us about flying, booking accommodations, restaurant and taking taxis and rideshares from an advocacy point of view. He himself is a dog guide handler, so he's got lots of experience to share with us today. I hope you enjoy. Hi Chris, thanks for joining me on the show.
20:45 S3
Terrific. Always great to be here, Harriet.
20:47 S1
Do you have any tips for flying with your dog guide?
20:50 S3
Yeah, like, I think there's a few quick tips that I would say is, firstly, ensure that you've got your paperwork in order, particularly when flying. It's really important that you carry your card that your your dog's wearing an ID tag. And you know when you're going through the airport just, you know, help staff by explaining, you know, what works for you. And it should be a better experience. And one of the key things I do on the plane now. So you'll be required to hire your dog to the metal of the seat these days for all airlines. And so I sometimes find that the dog gets a bit tangled in that.
And so one of the tricks that I often do now is loop it through the metal of the seat. And then if the if the lead's long enough to loop it also around the seat belt and therefore the part of the lead is up high, which stops the dog getting tangled. And it also, yeah, you've got ability to be able to control the dog through that process.
21:46 S1
Do you ever sleep on the aeroplane when you have the dog?
21:48 S3
Certainly I do. I think that, you know, my dog is very used to flying. I think that the other key thing is to ensure that you limit the water before going on the plane. So be very conscious about when the dogs toileted, you know, obviously don't starve the dog of water, but try and avoid it having, you know, a really big drink so that it'll it feels like it needs to go on the, on the plane.
22:11 S1
We don't need kind of that drinking for fun type of thing that some labs in particular love.
22:16 S3
Yeah that's right. And so and sort of be, you know, very conscious of that.
22:21 S1
Do you have any tips for booking accommodation when you're traveling out and about in Australia?
22:26 S3
Look, you know, I think this is one of those things about what people are comfortable with. So. So certainly there's no requirement under the law that you need to notify the accommodation in advance. And I think that, you know, certainly as far as big hotels go, you would very rarely receive a problem. And if you do obviously just escalate that through to to a manager. What we're seeing where there's greater issues is within Airbnb etc.. And so, you know, most of the time I still wouldn't notify the accommodation in advance. But, you know, I think that if you want to completely avoid any issues, there's certainly that option to to let them know that you'll be bringing a seeing eye dog in under the legislation, you're allowed to do that.
The thing that I sort of always think about is that dogs are unfortunately, Labradors do drop a fair bit of hair. And so one of the things that we would often do at the end of staying at a place is if you're staying there for a period of time, is to maybe do just a quick sweep around, just to take up the bulk of the hair. It's not doing the cleaner's job for them, but just because then it'll be a lot, a much more like standard sort of mess that anyone else would do, rather than sort of having big lumps of hair. But yeah, that is an optional thing, but I think it just avoids someone coming back and saying, hold up. There's, you know, an excess of hair and you're going to be charged an additional cleaning fee, which they're not allowed to do. But I just find that that works. And very rarely I get raised to a problem.
23:59 S1
I guess it's one of those things, whether you need to or not, it's nice for someone to. Then hopefully it's time a handler comes across go. Well, they don't leave hair, they don't. It was perfectly behaved. Whereas potentially if you've got a bit of hair, they might unfortunately be a little bit less impressed.
24:17 S3
And I think that, you know, and it is important that under the law you do need to have your dog groomed so, you know, your dog's well groomed to avoid dropping, you know, as much hair. I think that's really important when you're staying in another premises. But, you know, sometimes it is worth telling the accommodation that, that you have got a dog. So I know I stay in a hotel in Canberra and when I stay there they supply a very fancy dog bed for Eva and a water bowl, and it creates a really great experience.
24:46 S1
Do you have any tips for handlers eating out with their seeing eye dogs or dogs?
24:50 S3
Look, I think, the key thing is just restaurants are often very crowded and busy places. And, you know, I think it's to be very conscious of where you should sit at the table and try and have your dog underneath your chair where possible, because it is a bit embarrassing for everybody. If someone continues to trip over a dog or stand on a dog. And so I think that, you know, I think it's up to the handler to be very conscious of, you know, people need to move around restaurants and that if you set a great example of having your dog under the seat and not where possible, it just makes a better experience for all, including the dog.
25:28 S1
From my experience, especially with the black dog, sometimes, you know, even if the chair is not long enough or the table's a bit difficult and they can't get fully under, the staff just can't see them. So I'm always very, very mindful as a volunteer that I do get the kind of the seat by the window or by the wall out in the corner as much as possible, and I find that makes things easier for me at least.
25:50 S3
Yeah, 100%. It is very clear that, you know, you are allowed in all restaurants. And so if somebody in the restaurant is saying you're not allowed to bring your pet in here, my experience is you're the really key thing is stay calm and explain the situation that it's not a pet and that it is a service animal. And and they do have the right. And look, you know, I think that using those escalation points again is to say, Well, can I please speak to the manager will often resolve those issues where it doesn't speak to your guide dog mobility instructor. And certainly, you know, they might be able to support a letter to try and help change the attitude of that and remind them of what the law is.
26:30 S1
Are there any tips that you have on point to point transport? So taxi or rideshare?
26:35 S3
Look, I think, you know, some of the points are very similar is that when I'm booking a rideshare or a taxi on an app. One of the key things I do is take a screenshot every time and then. So that means we've got all the driver details, we've got all the vehicle details. So if something does go wrong, you've got a record of that to be able to make a complaint through the booking service or to the regulator. The other key thing is when a driver does come up, stay calm, explain it. Key thing that they'll be talking about, particularly with Uber because Uber has got an Uber pet, is to be very clear on that it's not a pet. And remind the drivers that they would have done training explainsingthe access of assistance animals. It is Uber policy. It is the law.
And then the other thing that I find works a lot, and I know that, yeah, it's up to individuals about what works for them. Putting your seeing eye dog in the back seat, where you're pushing the front passenger seat forward, and you hop in and have the dog sits behind the passenger seat and you sit behind the driver's seat. Yeah, that often just creates that level of distance between the dog and the driver, and provides those drivers that are a bit nervous about dogs. I find that that also helps limit refusal. So yeah, there's a few things that you can do yourself to try and limit it. But when you do experience a refusal, be sure to report it to the booking service and report it to your state regulator.
28:04 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with puppy development trainer Paige John about freerunning and social time for dogs, and with Chris Edwards, General Manager, Corporate Affairs and Advocacy, about some seasonal travelling tips for handlers. For more information on seeing eye dogs, the work we do or how you can help, head to our website at Sydney Vision Australia. Org. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show, and don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode.
