00:10 S1
On Vision Australia radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I'm going to be joined by Seeing Eye Dogs puppy carer Karen Anderson, who's going to be talking to us about her life and her volunteer story. Karen is a grandmother, a puppy and a breeder carer and a kindergarten teacher. We're going to talk about her two current dogs, as well as some of her past experiences, as well as the impact on the children's lives in the kindergarten that the dogs have and how it is for these puppies raised around the children. So we're going to talk a little bit about that experience in a quite unique environment.
We are looking for puppy carers across Victoria, parts of Queensland and parts of New South Wales. So if you are someone who is considering raising a puppy, especially if you're interested in what it might be like raising a puppy in a school or any early learning environment. Keep having a listen and I hope you enjoy my interview with Karen.
Hi Karen, thank you for joining me on the show today. Hi. I'd love to start off if you are happy to introduce yourself, please.
01:24 S2
Hi, I'm Karen Anderson. I live on the Mornington Peninsula on Boonwurrung country, and I'd like to acknowledge them as the people, as the traditional custodians of this land and recognise their strength and resilience in maintaining their cultures for thousands of years. Welcome any First Nations who are listening to this podcast and pay respects to elders, past and present. I am a kindergarten teacher at a preschool. I've been there since 1984. Yes, that's a very long time. And I'm a mum of one child who's 29 and one grandchild who is one.
02:02 S1
I'd like to also acknowledge the traditional owners of the land where I am, which is Kooyong. Wurundjeri, Woiwurrung people of the Kulin nation are the traditional custodians of this land. So I'd love to find out a little bit about the volunteer role that you have at CSIRO. So what role are you doing as a volunteer with us?
02:22 S2
So my role is a puppy raiser, so I get the puppies when they're roughly eight weeks, and then they go into training from about 12 months onwards. And I think I've been doing it for 17 or 18 years. I can't exactly remember. Yeah. Initially I started because my son wanted a Labrador puppy and I couldn't afford a Labrador puppy. So I'm like... well, what else can I do? Or maybe I could... volunteer and we'd have our puppies and he'd be happy and I'd be giving back to society, if you like, by helping to raise the pups.
02:54 S1
And since then, what kind of keeps you coming back?
02:58 S2
Well, they're beautiful dogs to have in your lives, and their time with me doesn't end in a death. So I really like that. So while you're sad when you give the pups up, you actually have these really great, wonderful memories of your time with them. So that's why I keep giving giving it a go. And also, I guess my chance to give back to and help people.
03:19 S1
I think it's quite amazing that I guess what started as kind of a one-off goes into 17 or 18 years of volunteering.
03:27 S2
Yes. I never thought that was going to happen, but here I am.
03:30 S1
I mean, is that also a bit like you at at the kindy that you're at? Did you think, oh, I'll work here 2 or 3 years. And now it's been what, almost almost 41?
03:40 S2
Mm. Pretty much. I... stay in the same place and I'm not good at changing things. So when I'm comfortable and it's all working, I tend to just stick with what I know and what I think I'm good at. And yeah, so that's hence the same house, same job. Still a... puppy raiser.
03:59 S1
Brilliant. Well, we we love to have it. And... I mean, you must have had quite a few puppies through that.... time, too.
04:06 S2
Yes, I think... I've lost count. I'm up to 17 or 18, I think.
04:12 S1
And could you please introduce your current. I was going to say dog, but dogs.
04:15 S2
I'm thinking yes, I do, I have... Mirring, who is a golden Labrador. He is 18 months old and he's been accepted into the breeding program. So he will stay with me for longer than I've ever had before. So when I have to say goodbye to him, it's going to be super, super hard. He's a beautiful dog, and while he was being assessed for what was his next stage of his career, I got another one called Quiggle. And Quiggle is eight months old and he's come in through some organisation that seed is part of. And, um, they decide on what happens with him and when it happens. So he'll be with me at least till he's 15 months old.
And they decide on what the course of action is, if you like, whether they de-sex him or that sort of thing. So it's a little bit different having just a cedar dog.
05:03 S1
So that's the... Oceanic Breeding cooperative, I think. And...
05:07 S2
That is correct. Yes.
05:08 S1
It's kind of going to be, I guess, hopefully he'll be able to be a be a stud dog, like marrying... and go on to produce some wonderful dogs for a schools across the region, I suppose.
05:22 S2
Yes, I think that's correct.
05:23 S1
Yes, but but I guess in terms of your role, is anything different or are you just kind of raising the same lovely puppy with the goal that he also might go on to be a seeing eye dog?
05:33 S2
Correct. So everything else is the same. The differences are the immunisation schedule is a little bit different and then they're with us longer. So it's another three months to what the normal... what I've been used to before.
05:46 S1
And the same with... Mirring I guess. Then you've got two of them just for a kind of slightly more extended period.
05:53 S2
Yes, I have - unexpectedly, yes. It's busy with two dogs.
05:58 S1
And do you bring them both into kindy?
06:01 S2
Yes I do.
06:02 S1
How long have you been bringing the pups to kindy? Is that the whole 17 years?
06:06 S2
Absolutely, yes. So when I first started, I had to ask the employer if they're happy for the puppy to come in and also the families. And then for the first few years, I surveyed the families and just asked them, you know, like, were they happy with me taking the puppy in? What do they see as the benefits? Were they worried about anything? So I did that for a few years and then all the feedback was always positive, so I haven't, I didn't do it after that. But yes, they come with me to kinder every day.
They're always tethered, so they're never off-lead with the children because if you know Labradors, they're quite boisterous and I'm sure they would knock children over in the excitement of having 27 children running around with them, so tethered while the children are there. And then when the children leave, they can have a run out in the playground. And we also go down to Boundary Beach in Bush one day a day a week, so the puppies get to come and spend that time at the beach with us. Five hours walking around. Also tethered, obviously. But... they get that outside outside environment for, yeah, five hours.
07:04 S1
Is that part of the bush type of the reasoning behind the going outdoors?
07:10 S2
Yes. So we developed that program about 15 years ago where we wanted to just give the children time to slow down and appreciate the moment and... connect them with the environment around us. And then through doing that, we realised we also weren't bringing First Nations teachings into our program. So we also talk a lot about the importance of caring for country and looking after each other and the relationships between not only humans, but the relationship between non-human being the trees and the waterways and the birds and the animals.
07:45 S1
And now, I guess you've had quite a few generations that are going to grow up from an earlier age, much more aware, I guess, of of indigenous care of land and that type of culture as well, which is, which is quite special.
07:57 S2
Yes. Not just the children though. So the children are teaching up so their families and their grandparents are learning from them as well. So it has like a ripple effect beyond just our centre.
08:07 S1
I guess it really does tell you the importance of teaching children, you know, not just assuming that you have to teach the parents to teach them. It really can be that the change can come from the youngest of the family.
08:17 S2
Absolutely. It definitely does. Yes.
08:21 S1
So what do you think that taking the dogs to kindy is like for the children, you know, what do you think that the kids think? And, you know, I guess, what do they learn about the dogs?
08:30 S2
Sure. They gain a great understanding about the difference between working dogs and pets, and they'll be great advocates, like out in the shopping centres and things with their adults to say, you know, don't touch that dog. We know it's a working dog. So they get a really good sense of what that's like. They also gain understanding about caring for the puppy. So, you know, they remind me, have I given them water? Have I fed them yet? They need to go to the toilets, all those sorts of things. Surprisingly, sometimes we use them like a therapy dog. If children are feeling quite distressed or unsure, the dogs can help them calm down. So they could have like a pet time.
Or sometimes I let them lead them. If they're just needing a bit of distraction for feeling a bit dysregulated. And children who have not grown up with dogs and are a bit nervous around them over the 12 months that they're with me, they tend to relax more and have a greater understanding and appreciation that they're okay to be around, but still with still with care about being safe around them. So, you know, children often in homes, they'll cuddle their dogs and put their faces near their faces. And I talk a lot about keeping their faces away from their mouth because they're still dogs and you never know what they're going to do.
And children are also unpredictable. So even the best dog can have a bad moment or second. So we talk also a lot about respecting the dog and and being calm with it. They're also great advocates for look out eating a stick or look out Wiggles got the toy. So those sorts of things, and they'll be running around trying to get me to make sure that the dogs aren't eating things they're not meant to be. And they learn to keep their lunch boxes and their play toys out of the reach of the puppies. Otherwise they may end up in the puppy's mouth.
10:17 S1
I think it's kind of amazing hearing that. Like, I mean, it's been a while since I've been at kindy and I don't remember learning any of those types of lessons, but it sounds like you're really raising some quite considerate human beings who are looking out for the dogs and really being mindful about things in a different way.
10:33 S2
Yes, I'm hoping that's the case. And of course, like all, every child is different and some children will really be, you know, completely on board with helping me with the dogs. And some wouldn't even know if they're if they're there every day. So there's still that diversity within the group, of course. But... yeah, I've always got a core group that are very focused, like, where's their toy? Have they been fed? Have you given them water? Anything I can do to help? Can I walk one of them now? Especially now, I've got two when we're down the beach and the bush. Like, can I walk one? Because Mirring has learnt everything so the children can walk him. Can we walk him, like... Yeah, but you've got to be the boss of him still. Don't let him just pull you around the beach.
11:11 S1
That's fascinating. I think you've got some baby puppy carers on your hands then. Like so. Yeah, maybe.
11:17 S2
Absolutely not. Just potential ones. So the families that the kinda the parents also are really attached to these puppies. And one of them has just been accepted as a puppy raiser. So she's just got her first dog.
11:29 S3
Oh, lovely.
11:31 S2
Mm, my last dog who didn't make it - one of the families actually purchased her, so she's still within the community. So it's like a community, raising these puppies.
11:40 S1
Mm, which is really special. And I.... guess the puppies learn so much from the kids too. I'm guessing that kind of gives them a really good amount of exposure to things. And I guess, like when you said the kids have to be mindful to pack up things and keep themselves as neat as they can. The puppies still have to exercise a little bit more impulse control than they might, you know, around an adult office, there's different temptations.
12:03 S2
Yes, there is. And and if you don't watch them like they're having a nibble. I tie them up to the piano because the piano is really heavy and they can't drag that across the room. So the piano's had a little bit of... chewing happening to it, and the piano stool almost eaten through one of the legs. So yes, they're still puppies, but I think within a preschool setting, like there's lots of noise, like there's 27 children in the group and there's 3 or 4 adults all the time. There's lots of noise and there's sudden noises. So they're really become quite...
12:37 S1
Life-proofed.
12:38 S2
Almost. Yes. So they don't respond to a sudden sound or chaos or, you know, yesterday we had... a band at the kinder, the children with a band, but we had... music coming out of loudspeakers, we had microphones, we had instruments, and the dogs were right next to where all that was happening, and they were just sleeping through that. So they come, you know, come quite desensitised, I guess, to a lot of noise and action.
13:02 S1
It would be really interesting to if puppies would go and graduate to handlers who have kids or around kids. They've really got used to those very specific skills that and strange things that happen around children.
13:16 S2
Yeah, I would think so. Yes. I remember once... I can't remember who visited from Australia, but there was about 3 or 4 people and the puppy was just little at the time, and he was in a crate, and the crate was like just in the middle of the room. And the children used the wooden blocks to build right up, right up the sides of the crate and right across the top. And there was his dog just in his crate. Didn't make a noise. Just let the children build all around him. He couldn't even see out by the end of it. But he was all... he was calm. He was like, being looked after still. But yeah, that was sort of just an example of how used to they are of seeing the children playing around them.
13:52 S1
Yeah. And just, you know, being covered by blocks, you know, it's like nothing touching you, but you're suddenly just in darkness - like that's...
14:00 S3
Yeah.
14:00 S1
Strange. So Mirring has a particularly special name. Are you aware of the heritage of that one?
14:09 S2
Yes, I am, and I actually requested him because in Boonwurrung, in Boonwurrung language, Mirring means eyes. And I think it's a Wurundjeri word, but it means the same thing. It's just pronounced differently. So we have a song about Mirring and Werring, which is eyes and ears. So they already were familiar with it and understood when he came that it was, yeah, that it was a [?Wurong] word for them.
14:33 S1
So you teach some of that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture to the kids, and so they understand the kind of significance of the word, as you said. But do they understand the importance of recognizing that culture and celebrating that? Does that make sense?
14:48 S2
Yes, I think they do. So we have something every day would be around the corner on culture or First Nations cultures in a more general sense, and they understand that the story of invasion we've done, we do truth telling with them. So they they really understand those concepts, which are not concepts that I grew up with when I was in school. And also lots of the parents also had not heard any of those stories. So they're very much advocates for First Nations and their stories, and they are involved with First Nations people through learning, through... the plants at the beach, like the bush Tucker, through music, through song, through dance, through storytelling, through artwork.
So they're exposed to First Nations teachings in lots of different ways, and they teach their families about it, and some of them will, when they've been taught a word, say, for instance, for a bird that's in Bunnerong, they will only ever refer to it using one language from then on. And I've heard a child have an argument with their grandparent once because the grandparent was saying the English word and the child was saying the Wurong word and saying, you're wrong, Nana. It's not called that. It's called this. So, yeah, they really have a strong connection with the learnings that we've been able to bring into the preschool.
16:07 S1
It's amazing really, just to think of how switched on some kids are, because, you know, I think you assume that it's, you know, unfairly thinking, you know, it's so hard to teach a second language to children, but sounds like they're really taking it all in.
16:19 S2
Yes. It's actually easier when they're younger.
16:22 S3
Yes.
16:24 S1
What is the thing that you find most rewarding or positive about puppy caring?
16:30 S4
That's a really hard question to Answer.
16:33 S2
So they're just beautiful dogs. So that's probably one of the main things is just they're gorgeous, they're gorgeous. They're caring, they're loving, they're loyal, they're clever. They welcome us into their lives. Even if they've only known you for one day, they'll still wag their tail and be really happy to to have you part of their lives. I love watching the progress that they make. And obviously when if they graduate, the feeling that you've raised a puppy that can help someone is a pretty amazing feeling. I also love seeing the smiles they bring to people's faces when I go places. And you know, they tend to attract people that have grown up with Labradors.
So you hear all sorts of stories about Labradors and lots of comments about, you know, I wish my dog was that well behaved, but I think like just the joy they bring to a lot of people. And just as you're walking around like you just, yeah, eyes are on you as you as you're walking in or not on you. On the dogs. Sometimes they don't actually see the people because the dogs take their identity. So I think that's, um, that's really special to be able to do that for people. And yeah, once they graduate, just seeing I've met a couple of the people that my puppy raised dogs have gone to. And just to hear them talk about, you know, the the independence and the relationship they have with that dog. And to know I've been part of that process is... really, really special.
18:00 S1
I think being in touch with some of those handlers must be quite of a personal experience, too.
18:06 S2
Mm, yes. It's pretty... yeah, it's been emotional, actually, when you just go and see and and the puppy always remembers you. No matter how long it is since you've seen them and, yeah, you've made a difference to someone's life, which is pretty amazing and an honour.
18:23 S1
I suppose some of your earlier dogs would already be... I mean, they'd already be retired by... now.
18:30 S2
Yes, they would be. They might not even be still here.
18:33 S3
Mm.
18:33 S1
Which is... yeah. I mean, that's quite a lot of of history, but, eah. Really special to be part of that whole...cycle and that whole journey.
18:42 S2
Yes. Amazing. I was fortunate that the first four puppies that I raised all graduated.
18:47 S1
Oh, wow.
18:48 S2
I think that's quite unique that that happens. And... so when the fifth one failed or didn't make it, I was devastated. And I was like, so grumpy with everybody that had made that decision, including the dog and myself. And... but, you know, to see those, the first one that... passed, which was my first puppy that I raised, and I met the person that he went to, and she lived in Western Australia. So she was actually over here and I met her. And yeah, it was pretty surreal experience to meet her and chat with her and... see the dog lead her off. And, you know, the person walking really confidently next to him was, yeah, pretty special.
19:27 S1
And the dogs aren't really necessarily... I mean, sometimes they look back, but they're not really looking back in the same way. They kind of...
19:33 S2
No, no, no. No.
19:33 S1
They kind of go...
19:34 S2
I knew I was, he knew I was there so he could hear my voice. And when she was sitting down, I could see him watching me moving around the space that we're in. But... he was still very much focused on what, you know, she was asking him to do.
19:46 S1
So going on the flip side, because I think it's always an interesting question to ask, what do you find the most challenging about puppy caring?
19:55 S2
I think people don't realise that when you take on a puppy, it's like 24 hours a day that you've got the puppy - similar to as if you had a child... and that when you're out and about, your attention needs to be on what the dog's doing. So sometimes I find that tricky, and sometimes I just want to go on a walk by myself so I don't have to think about anything else. But... I don't do that very often because I'm committed to giving them as much exposure as I can. So I think that part's challenging when they first arrive, and then the training is not quite there and there and they're not sleeping all night. I go, Why have I done this again? Mm.
But then I remind myself why. And it's all good, but that those first few weeks are pretty tricky. If you have a dog that barks, that's really challenging. I had one during Covid that barked a lot. And, you know, our stress levels were already really high in those first couple of years. So that was super stressful with him barking and me already feeling stressed out by what was going on. Two dogs is a lot of poo to pick up. I'll say that's pretty challenging at the moment.
20:58 S1
Especially wo larger ones. Now that Quiggle isn't exactly a tiny puppy, you kind of have vaguely adult-sized poos.
21:04 S2
I know you always have to talk about poo, right? But it is really a factor. It is definitely a factor. Yeah.
21:09 S1
And, um, anything else that's challenging?
21:13 S2
I suppose it's a bit like being a teacher. You can't be too squeamish as a puppy carer.
21:19 S1
No. True.
21:22 S2
I think... like I try not to see things as challenges. I just go, Well, that's a bit hard, but what can I do to make it work? So I guess that's sort of just like who I am as a person.
21:31 S1
Lots of problem solving.
21:33 S2
Sometimes I feel bad for the dogs at kinder... because like, the children are there for five hours, so there are some days they're tethered for five hours and I haven't paid them any attention. But then I think, well, the alternative would be they would be be home and no one would be around. So at least they've got people around them. So sometimes I feel a little guilty about how busy I am and whether I'm giving them enough attention and having two dogs. I am concerned that I'm not giving enough one on one time, so I'm really conscious of that.
But I'm coming up to school holidays, so I will be making an effort to to walk him more on his own. Like it... like the instructions from the... trainers is just to take them separately on the walks. But I don't have time to do two separate walks a day. Sometimes I don't have time to do any walks. So yeah, I feel like I don't want to let him down because he's a good dog. So I guess that that's just a challenge that I've... that I'm aware of that I need to address.
22:32 S1
Doubling up is is hard. It's not something that kind of, I guess everyone would do. But when it, you know, it's that's kind of the situation you find yourself in. And then...
22:40 S2
Yeah. I probably wouldn't do it again, but I might not have a choice. If they're both breeders, I'm like, Oh, okay, now I've got two dogs.
22:47 S1
Yeah. I mean that's that's the thing, isn't it? Giving, kind of giving up one of them when you have the option to not, is kind of...
22:53 S2
Yes.
22:54 S1
It's kind of tempting to hold on to...
22:56 S2
Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But they're both, yeah, mostly they're very good. Merring was a great puppy. And he didn't eat or chew or destroy anything, so he was quite an easy puppy. So if you have a puppy that chews a lot, that is quite tricky... which Mirring tends to do. But he's he's getting better, but he's teaching me how to do it, which is really interesting.
23:16 S2
So is Quiggly.
S1
Quiggle does it. And then is teaching Mirring.
23:20 S2
Correct. Which, you know, is weird. Because Mirring the adult dog is meant to be, you know, showing Quiggle the way, but.. not always the case.
23:29 S1
Corrupted by the baby.
23:32 S2
Correct. And a little bit of jealousy with two dogs, as I'm sure you've experienced as well, but we're managing that. So yeah, not too much challenging for me. I think the biggest thing is, I think for me, I want to do the best I can for these dogs, so I hardly ever leave them at home and I take them like we've been to concerts and like they come to the dentist with me and all those sorts of things. So I feel like that's a commitment that I've made, and I will take them with me to as many places as I can, and sometimes that can be a little bit stressful, depending on what that space is. But mostly it's okay.
24:09 S1
So we did speak a bit about, I guess I know there's some challenges of of having a puppy in the classroom in terms of maybe the kind of tethering time, but do you have any kind of messages to any teachers or schools... considering having a seeing eye dog... or, you know, puppy or... seeing eye dogs breeder, in the classroom.
24:29 S2
I think it's a really, really valuable experience. And I do think that it brings calmness to the space. An example was I was actually at a school the other day, and the the children from the kindergarten, not just from my kindergarten, from lots of different kindergartens, will come into school for their first transition day.
And there was one little boy who was really, really nervous, but he was interested in the dog. And I said to him, Would you like to just like, hold the dog for me? And I've just got to run to get something. And it was, it wasn't very far away. And then he said, Oh, that'd be good. And then I said, would you like to help him walk him into the classroom? And he said, Oh, that would be good. And then he sat down but away from everyone else. And I said, Can I just tie him up here and leave him with you while I run and see the other children? And he said, oh yeah, that's good. So it like helped relax that child. So even though that's not what these dogs role is, I think that that can happen.
As an aside, if you like... while they're learning and I think just children that haven't been around animals, it's a great way for them to have an understanding and their parents have an understanding. If they're making a decision about bringing a dog into their families, they've got an idea of the commitment before they they purchase puppies that maybe end up not being appropriate for their lives.
25:41 S1
Maybe. Good to realise about dog allergies, too. Correct?
25:45 S2
Yes. That's tricky. If you've got a child with dog allergy in your class. Yes, that's... fair... that is a fair point.
25:53 S1
So just to finish off, is there anything else that you would like to share with people about your experiences as a volunteer?
26:00 S2
It's a big load that you take on, but I do work really hard employment wise, and the dogs just fit around that. And I look back to when I had my own dog, and she used to be here, like 12 hours on her own. So how cruel was I to her? So I love that these dogs can come everywhere with me. Even if I can't give them attention, they're still with me. And I think you can have as much, um, socializing with the other puppy carers as you choose. So there's lots of times and opportunities to get together with the other puppy carers and hang around after the training and have a chat and build friendships up. So I think that's a really great way for that to happen, if that's what you're looking for.
So it's not just about the dogs, but it's about all the people that are a part of their process and them succeeding. It's just a nice it's just a nice thing to do. And people do ask like, How much does it cost? So there's no cost involved. It's it's your time that you're giving and everything else is covered by the organisation. So there's no financial cost for people to be able to do this.
27:06 S1
Like you said at the start, kind of yeah, having a Labrador puppy is... a lot. It's a big commitment, not just purchasing the puppy, but then the food and the vets and all of that type of stuff. It is nice that all of this is covered.
27:20 S2
Yes, it is very nice.
27:23 S1
Well, thank you so much for an amazing, yeah, 17 or 18 years of volunteering and... for coming on the show and chatting about your story.
27:32 S2
My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.
27:41 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Karen talking about her life and volunteer story. I think it's quite amazing that you can take your puppy into that kind of education or early learning space, and the benefits that both the dogs and kids get from each other.
If you are interested in finding out about puppy caring, we are looking for puppy carers in parts of Victoria, Queensland and New South Wales and as you may have guessed, we are open to people working in education, early learning such as kindy and in a range of other occupations and lifestyles. So if you're interested in public hearing, we'd love for you to head to our website at Vision Australia and find out more, or talk to our team about if you are interested. We also have an upcoming information session on January 30th from 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. Australian Eastern Daylight Time, or 5 to 6 in Queensland. So if you're interested, head to that website, read up about baby caring or attend an information session. We would love to have you on board.
If you'd like to find out anything else about seeing eye dogs, the work we do, how you can help, or becoming a handler, you can head to that website at Vision Australia. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show. Have a lovely week and tune in same time next week for another episode.
