00:10 S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I'm going to be joined by two guests. The first is Damien McMorrow, Vision Australia's National Access Technology Manager. He is also a seeing eye dog handler. He's going to be talking to us about Access Technology, to be used with your dog guide, and how he uses access technology to work with his own seeing eye dog, Jenna, to help him navigate, orient and find, you know, different even things like a store within a shopping complex. So lots of really interesting tips on how you as a dog guide team can work as well with that technology to really enhance your experience.
Then I'm going to be joined by Seeing Eye Dogs vet doctor Ashe Mooney - to talk about arthritis. We're going to be talking about what it is, how to spot it, and how to work with your vet to kind of treat or help manage the symptoms of arthritis. So lots of interesting tips for you to use. I hope you enjoy this episode, and thank you for listening.
Talk to us a little bit about some of the things that you use.
01:25 S2
Sure, definitely. So probably one of the other game changers in the last sort of 12 months or so have been the Ray-Ban Meta Smart Glasses. So these are... they look, for all intents and purposes, like a regular pair of sunnies, you know, with... they're a Ray-Ban. So they're... come in a few different styles and colours and all of those sorts of things, but they have a tiny little camera just above the left eye. So the top sort of left hand corner of the frame. And they're also equipped with built in AI. So there's little speakers in the arms of the glasses that when you, so when you're wearing them, those speakers are very close to your ears.
And you can then use that, use the built-in AI to ask questions so I can say things like... you know, common one that I'll do is, Hey, Meta, look and tell me what you see. And if I'm... you know, then if I'm looking for a particular shop, I might say, Look and tell me if there's any signage... or, Look and read me any text if I've got a menu. So a good example of that... we were, we had a weekend away in Melbourne at the end of last year, and... we wanted to do a little bit of shopping. And those listeners from Melbourne might know the Block Arcade in Collins Street.
And... so I, we went into the The Block Arcade and we were looking for a couple of things. We were looking for Haig's chocolates, and we were looking for the Charles Dickens Tavern to go and have some lunch. And then we were also looking for a... Birkenstocks... shop. And so what I did was I would sort of come up to a shop window or a door and I would say, Look and tell me what you see. And it would tell me, the glasses would tell me what you know, what was on display, perhaps, or... you know, so or it might say, I see... what looks like a cafe with lots of tables and chairs. And you think, okay, well, that could be the tavern.
So then I would say, Look and tell me if there's any signage. And it might say, oh, you know, I see a sign that says... and it may or may not be the business that I'm looking for. So that sort of stuff is really helpful... because it means that... I can sometimes give Jenna more meaningful directions if I can tap into some of the visual cues... that might be there, you know, and I can know, okay, do we want to go into this shop, or is it not the one that I want?
So, for example, when I was looking for the Birkenstocks shop, I stood in front of the shop window and I said, look and tell me what you see. And it said, I see... a shop window with... shoes and boots on display. And I said... Look and tell me if there's any signage. And there was, but it wasn't the shop that I wanted. So it meant I didn't have to go into that one. I thought, okay, I've had a look on my GPS and I'll talk about that in a second. I know it's in this block somewhere, so we'll just go a couple of shops further down and repeat the process. And then I found it - said, you know, I see a shop with... leather sandals in the window. And I said, you look and see if there's any signage. And it said, I see a sign that says Birkenstock. So I was able to to find the shop that I wanted.
So that one's definitely, um, a bit of a game changer, I think. And just sometimes being able to... get descriptions of things, you know, looking at if you're standing at a table, you're not sure if it's occupied or not, you know, look and tell me if there are any people at this table, that kind of thing. And you can also use it in conjunction with services like Be My Eyes or IRA to get hands-free assistance. So you can be put through to, if it's Be My Eyes, a volunteer, or if it's IRA, one of their agents. And you can make a video call through the glasses and they can essentially see what you're looking at and give you directions that way. So that's pretty handy as well because it's hands free.
Probably the other thing that I use a lot with Jenna is my Stellar Trek GPS. There are a couple of things, even on familiar routes. I used it a bit with with in training just so that I could start to cue Jenna, you know, to find a crossing or those kinds of things. It just gave me a little bit more information about what was around. So I found that that actually worked really well... and also things that were maybe a little bit difficult to find initially. You know, I put marked it, put a few more landmarks in the device so that I could... find them easily and give her the... reassurance and the confidence to sort of find it first time. So I found that
S1
What type of landmarks, out of curiosity?
05:52 S2
Ah. So things sometimes an entrance to a business that was maybe a little bit hard to identify. You know, a particular crossing where you, you know, it's maybe halfway down a street. So... crossing the road in front of my house, there's not really any landmarks, you know. So I marked that so that when I came up to it, I would hear an alert on the GPS, and I could start to tell Jenna to to find Right and find the crossing sort of thing. So things like that, where you might be crossing a road and not at a corner - so it's not, you know, it's not obvious. Those those kinds of things... I found really helpful.
But also with that, it means that I can... use things like the map browsing mode, and I can... have a look at a map, and I can... have a look at... okay, so to get from here to here, I'm going to need to cross three roads. And then at the third one I'm going to need to turn left on the up curve, and that kind of thing. So having being able to look at that ahead of time again, it means that I can be more confident in the directions that I'm giving Jenna. And so that makes her job easier. And also, you know, it means that she doesn't lose confidence. So I can be a little bit more sure about where we're going and what we're doing. And you normally, then you've got a better chance of getting it right the first or second time. So, you know, and I think particularly with a new dog, that's actually really important.
So using some of those tools in conjunction with... my dog just makes a difference to how smoothly you travel. It makes a difference for me in terms of how willing I am to wander around somewhere unfamiliar. You know, I'm from Brisbane and I'm wandering around the centre of Melbourne, for example. And therefore, you know, it means that Marion and I can go off exploring new places, have a weekend away in Melbourne and actually enjoy, you know, zipping around and shopping and, you know, seeing the various sights and trying the various restaurants and things.
I mean, it's amazing, especially like it makes me think of... you know, a spy film or like a spy TV series from the 90s where everyone's got, you know, it's like your phone, your shoe was in your phone and you're, you've got these high tech glasses. It's quite cool, isn't it? And quite... I think the thing that is, I don't know, I think is quite cool about it is... it's quite discreet and easy. It doesn't... sounds to me like something that, you know, you can really use with kind of total confidence. It's not like some, you know, massive, bulky, you know, you don't have to bring out a melees and, you know, try to, you know...
And that's the thing, you know, some of the... those types of devices that have gone before kind of make you look like an alien with a... camera sticking out the side of your head. The other thing about those glasses, too, is that they are a consumer... item. They're an everyday piece of tech, you know, that... works for someone with a vision impairment. You know, they... that wasn't what they were designed for. They were designed for people to post to their Instagram or their Facebook feed and things like that. But it just sort of happens that they're actually something that we can use. But the nice thing is that you can get them at any sort of standard sunglass or eyewear type store, you know, and... that they'll... work quite well out of the box, whether your iPhone or your your Android phone. So it's nice to have a sort of a mainstream, off-the-shelf piece of tech that actually works and is a real enabler for us in terms of navigating the environment.
09:19 S1
And can you claim that on NDIS as well?
09:22 S2
Not really. Um, well, okay. I would say you could, but you would do so at your own risk because they are an everyday item in the same way that a phone is an everyday item or that type of thing. And so it's one of those things you could try and you might get away with it, but you might not because it technically doesn't meet the guidelines. Um, so my my advice to people is don't I didn't. Um, but you know, I can I know there'll be people who'll who'll jump on me and say, oh, but I did, and I, you know. So look, if you want to risk it by all means. But the reading, the Ndia guidelines, my advice would be that they don't meet the guidelines and that I would generally not recommend that you try. And if you do, you do so at your own risk.
10:11 S1
Out of curiosity, do you have a ballpark of how much those would cost?
10:15 S2
There are about $450.
10:18 S1
That's not too bad for something that can enable so much.
10:21 S2
Absolutely. When you think that most of the other blindness-specific wearables come in at 4 or $5000.
10:27 S1
Yeah, that's what I was wondering if it would be...
10:30 S2
Yeah. No.... and that's and that's the thing, you know, that that's the the advantage of it being mainstream tech, is that the price comes down because obviously they can sell them by the million rather than by the thousand. But the disadvantage is that the you know, they though a lot of those things are regarded by the agency as a non-disability specific item or an everyday item, and therefore they're not covered, but the fact that they are of a much more reasonable price tag means that, you know, most people could probably save up and... still, you know, get themselves one.
11:05 S1
I think your point about it being an aid for Jenna as well to make as it will, as an aid for you. But, you know, in terms of making her work easier, I think it's really interesting because, you know, I'm sure, you know, we've had that there's been that long lasting kind of debate about will AI or will robots replace dog guides. And then you get on the flip side of, you know, oh, the dog is just guiding you around and you don't do any navigation. It's kind of amazing to highlight how these two things and, and you kind of all navigate together with your different responsibilities, like your use of the technology.
11:39 S2
That's right. Yeah. I mean, you still you still have to operate as a team. You still have to have good O&M skills. You still have to be listening to the traffic around you and all of those things. I mean, that's why we call them a seeing eye dog team, because you you can't rely solely on the the dog, and you can't sort of be overriding the, the dog either to get the best result. You're using your own skills, whatever technology is available and the skills that the dog has to give you the best outcome.
And you know, even though I'm a tech guy, I sincerely hope that we never get to the point of our dogs being replaced by robots because you, you cannot... go past the emotional bond that you form with another living being, you know, and... I mean, there are there are devices like the glide coming out, which is sort of essentially a guide robot. But I think that that does not interest me at all. I'm happy to use technology in conjunction with my dog, but I would never want to... substitute my dog for any kind of... piece of AI.
12:44 S1
Yeah, it is fascinating. And there's really there's no point when, you know, robots will really have that... I mean, have any of it, you know, they're just, it's just not the same.
12:55 S2
No, I did see, the other day, that in the States, someone has brought out a robot dog that doubles as a flamethrower. Now, that's something you know, I wouldn't mind having, but I...
13:07 S1
You can control it from your phone. What? For what purpose? I have to know.
13:12 S2
I think they use them for... things like fire suppression, you know, so going in and setting fire to undergrowth that might otherwise cause a bushfire, for example.
S1
Okay... interesting.
13:25 S2
You know, things like that. So the... application is more industrial than... anything else, but, you know, sometimes when you run across someone annoying, you think, Oh, yeah, I wish I had one of those flamethrower dogs, you know? But, you know, that's a different story, but I don't think I would ever want a robot... seeing eye dog.
13:44 S1
Yeah, no. Well, I yeah, I think it sounds more and more like some of the technology that's coming out is, you know, it's... just a game changer in some ways.
13:53 S2
Mm, it absolutely is. You know, all of this AI tech, you know, is... incredible really in terms of things like just image descriptions, even, you know, being able to take a photo and then ask the AI, What's in the photo? Is the photo straight up? Marrying... my wife had some usable vision until her mid-20s and used to like to take photos. And she has, because of the AI, been able to get back into that using apps like... Be My Eyes and so she can take a photo and she can say, you know, ask it, Is the dog looking at the camera? Is the photo straight? Is the photo well lit? You know, so she can ask all of those questions and be pretty confident about the photo that she's going to send to her family, or post to Facebook or whatever it might be.
So, you know, there's all of those sort of side benefits for us as well. And things like reading menus to be able to, you know, photograph a menu with your glasses or your, an app on your phone and say... Tell me the vegetarian options - you know, rather than having to listen to it from top to bottom and hear all of the things you don't want. I, you know, I'm... a bit of a car nut as well. And so sometimes I'll hear something go past with a nice throaty V8 rumble. And I'll say to the glasses, Hey, Meta, look and tell me what kind of car that is, and it'll say, Oh, it's a 1969 Mustang or something. So you know that just having that kind of incidental information about your environment, I think, can be quite enriching and just just cool, really, at the end of the day.
15:22 S1
I mean, that type of thing is... like because it goes beyond a lot of human intelligence, because if, you know, if you asked, you know, for example, if you were with someone sighted, if if we were walking together and that car went past and he said, What is that? Our car, would be my answer. Maybe... A blue car. You know, it's... kind of, it's an incredible bank of knowledge that these things have access to, that, yeah not everyone does.
15:48 S2
That's right. Yeah, that's absolutely right. You know, and as I said, even... in the car, you know, something will pull up next to you at the lights and you go, Oh, that sounds cool. What is that thing? So you look out the window and say, Look and tell me what sort of car that is. You know, so just having that, you know, because if I could see and I was a car nut, I would be looking out the window. Oh, look at that Mustang, you know. Yeah. My... one of my cab driver mates does that all the time. He'll go, Oh, that's a '68, you know, fastback or whatever. And so it's nice to kind of be able to do the same thing.
16:19 S1
Yeah.
16:20 S2
Using using this tech that isn't obtrusive and that you just have, you know, you just wear...
16:28 S1
I'm just to finish off. Do you have, I guess, any... I was going to say just to finish it off, do you have any advice for anyone who's looking for, I guess, a help with the Access Technology or, you know, how might they get in touch with Vision Australia's team to help?
16:44 S2
Sure. Well, they can certainly call the the Vision Australia at help desk. And... all of the... people who... are on the help desk are themselves blind or low vision. So they bring lived experience as well as... a fairly broad range of technical knowledge. So, you can access that by calling the 1 300 847 466 and 1 300 VISION phone number and asking for the AT Helpdesk. You can also email them at help@visionaustralia.org - or you can obviously contact your regional office if you want to meet with one of our Access Technology specialists face to face.
And we can certainly step through the options with you. We've got a... all of our specialists have a good understanding of what's funded or fundable - and, you know, can... step through the different options with you, the pros and cons of each, all of that type of thing. Because it is a... minefield and it's a, it's... ever-changing as well. And so sometimes just having access to that sort of information can be pretty helpful.
17:48 S1
When there are so many good options... it's nice... to have. It can also be quite overwhelming. Absolutely, it's not like everyone has unlimited funds to buy every single thing and check which one's best.
17:59 S2
That's right. Absolutely. And so that's part of what we offer as well, is the ability to try some of these things out and test them and see what you think is going to work for you.
18:08 S1
Some, it's... a very cool thing to be able to have. Yeah. As well people with lived experience really... help you work out what works has worked for them as well.
18:18 S2
That's right. And they can share that information with you and say, Well, I use it in this way. I don't find it good for this particular thing. And they're not salespeople. They're not there to sell you product. They're just there to give you the the advice or the help. Yeah.
18:30 S1
Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show... again and talking about you and Jenna and your story and... about some of the very exciting and kind of mind-blowing AT.
18:41 S2
Yeah. No, thank you for having me. It's always, always fun to catch up with you, Harriet. And always... good to be part of the show.
18:53 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Damien McMorrow - Seeing Eye Dogs handler to Jenna and Vision Australia's National Access Technology Manager. If you'd like to find the other part to our interview where Damo spoke about his partnership with Jenna, you can head to your preferred podcast provider or Omnia FM page.
If you'd like to get access technology help or find out about some of the At solutions that might work for you, you can head to Vision Australia's website to find information about the Access Technology Help Desk. Or you can give the AT Help desk a ring at 1300 847 466. That number again is 1300 847 466 and ask for the AT Help desk. Or you can email AT help at Vision Australia. Our lovely AT staff are all blind or have low vision, so they have lived experience and are a kind of no obligation form of assistance so that you can get the best out of your technology.
Then I'm going to be joined by Seeing Eye Dogs' Dr Ashe Mooney from our vet team, who's going to be talking about arthritis. Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy. So one of the topics that any older dog owner is probably all too aware of, particularly those of us who have had labs or golden retrievers, is arthritis. What is arthritis in dogs?
20:19 S3
Yeah. So... arthritis generally refers to osteoarthritis, which is typically associated with aging. It comes when the the bones start wearing and tearing the cartilage starts degrading between your bones. And that's the nice padding that keeps them... from rubbing. And then over time, the changes to the actual bone structure result in pain, inflammation, reduced mobility.
20:44 S1
And what are the, I guess, what are the symptoms that you might see in your own dog to show that that's what's going on in the body?
20:52 S3
Sometimes it can be something as subtle as taking a bit longer to get up first thing in the morning. Or perhaps being a bit more hesitant, going up and down stairs or jumping up and down from the couch or the bed or the car. A little bit more hesitation from the animal can often indicate some mild discomfort. In more severe cases, you might see things like limping, holding a leg up, whimpering and vocalising, or heavily panting... or even like seeking out different surfaces to what they used to. Like maybe a dog used to always lay on like the concrete floor, and now you're seeing them always seek out a pillow. That might also be an indication that they're a bit uncomfortable.
21:34 S1
And what might what might make arthritis worse? Either kind of flaring up or, you know, I guess increase the likelihood of them presenting with arthritis?
21:45 S3
So... being overweight is probably the biggest risk factor. Oftentimes, you know, if you are bearing more weight, there's more pressure on all of those joints. And it increases the rate of the degradation. The degradation of the joints can be normal wear and tear to some extent. Pretty much all aging beings develop arthritis if they get to an advanced enough age. But being overweight can really kind of accelerate that aging process in the body. Other things can also be like being extremely, extremely active. Like think about the kelpie that just doesn't stop and would run until its feet were bleeding. You know, those kinds of animals, because they're overdoing it, they're also putting a bit too much strain on their bodies.
There's other risk factors, like, if they've had ligament injuries or anything like that often, you know, the injured joint will be the one that develops arthritis first as the animal ages.
22:43 S1
As we reach those cooler months, is that also something that might pop up more or symptoms might become worse in in the cooler months?
22:51 S3
Yeah. So as a vet, I do notice that there's an increased trend in cooler months. And humans with arthritis certainly report... increased aches and pains when it's colder and also when there's kind of rapid weather changes, like when it goes from being 40 degrees, and then suddenly there's a thunderstorm and the humidity changes, and then it's 20 degrees. Sometimes people will experience pain flares, and certainly the same can be kind of interpreted about animals.
So a lot of the times I, as a vet, will prescribe kind of year-round arthritis support, which usually involves something that slows the rate of the... arthritis progressing by increasing the protection in the joint space, and then also something that's providing pain relief for the existing arthritis. And sometimes in the winter months, I find that animals will need maybe an additional or a slightly stronger pain relief component to what they need during the warmer months of the year.
23:42 S1
And so if you are concerned, or if an owner is concerned that their dog might be experiencing... symptoms of arthritis, how do you, you know, how do you, as a vet, work with them and diagnose that?
23:57 S3
Usually a physical exam can tell us a lot about whether or not an animal is arthritic. But then the the next step would be X-rays, or if it's a quite complicated area or there's a lot of injury and other things going on, something like a CT scan or more advanced imaging can tell you a lot. But a lot of the times, you know, just with aging patients, it can be as simple as having a physical exam with your vet and having a chat about things.
24:22 S1
And so you did kind of mention... some of the treatment options. So in terms of that medication, is there anything else that you'd like to share about, you know, kind of how you might work with an owner to treat... either... well, the symptoms I guess?
24:35 S3
Yeah. So, certainly medication and supplements are one component. If you have an aging animal, it always helps to get them on to the supplements that help reduce the wear and tear. Or even if you have a very high performance, like, athletic dog, you know, something that's doing agility or, you know, you're a quite active person, you're going on long walks, hikes, whatever with your animal... maybe investing in a little bit of a protective... supplement might be worth your while. The medications for when they are arthritic can be quite specifically tailored to the individual animal and to your lifestyle, and how easy it is for you to access veterinary care on a regular basis.
And then the other aspect is environmental change. So, you know, if you're having an animal that has difficulty with stairs, maybe looking into getting a ramp, or getting a certain harness if you have a quite large dog that needs arthritis support, but it's hurting your back to help aid them to lift them up, you can get different styles of harnesses to help you make it more ergonomic for yourself as well. Or even sometimes having like slippery floorboards in the house make it really difficult for an arthritic animal to get around because they have to use more muscle to stay upright. So looking into rugs or non-slip yoga mats or something like that can... make a lot of difference.
25:51 S1
And I'm guessing as, as you said before, kind of one of the bigger factors is that weight, you know, excess weight is keeping a good body condition score. One of the ways that you can, I guess, reduce the risk of problematic arthritis symptoms.
26:07 S3
Yeah, certainly maintaining a good body condition score is always helpful. And if your animal is overweight, looking to get them down to an appropriate body condition score, which you can get help from your vet. There are certainly medical conditions that can prevent animals from being able to lose weight on their own. Once an animal is starting to get arthritic, I suppose the other thing to keep aware of is that increasing exercise may actually just exacerbate the problem. Like, you know, you think that, Oh, I want my animal to lose weight, let's walk a little bit more.
But if they're already suffering from arthritis pain, that might actually be doing them more harm. And you may need to do more of a dietary change in order to get that weight loss, to help provide them that support.
26:47 S1
And I guess even is the type of exercise going to have a bearing on how problematic that might be?
26:54 S3
Yeah. So typically, you know, things that require a lot of jumping, a lot of excess force... will be worse for the joints. But things like, you know, walking or low impact walking, like a hydrotherapy situation where they have the buoyancy of the water... to assist them, even if, like going to the beach and maybe walking your dog just through the part of the water where it's kind of reaching their chest so that it gives them a bit of support, or even swimming, things like that. Swimming can be really, really good as long as they're not kind of going mental jumping in and out of the pool.
27:26 S1
Yeah, bouncing through the waves like a dolphin is probably not what you need.
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Damien McMorrow, Seeing Eye Dogs handler and a National Access Technology Manager at Vision Australia. And with Dor Ashe Mooney from our Seeing Eye Dogs vet team. If you'd like to find out more about Seeing Eye Dogs, the work we do, or how you can help, head to our website at visionaustralia.org ... If you'd like to get assistance with your access technology or AT, you can reach out to Vision Australia's Access Technology or AT Helpdesk. You can call one 1300 847 466 and ask for theAT Helpdesk. That number again 1300 847 466 or email Help at Vision Australia.
If you are interested in finding out about Vision Australia's other services, you can head to the Vision Australia website at Vision Australia. If you would like to find out more of this podcast and other great podcasts, you can head to your preferred podcast provider or our Omni FM page for more interviews, including my part one of the interview with Damo, where we spoke about his partnership with Jenna. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show. Don't forget to tune in, same time next week for another episode. Have a lovely week.
