Selecting suitable Seeing Eye Dog candidates with Kylie

00:11 S1

On Vision Australia radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I'm going to be joined by Seeing Eye Dogs Training Manager Kylie Gersh, who is going to talk to us about the processes for dogs joining our training program. We're going to talk about the behind-the-scenes of how a puppy goes from living with a carer in our puppy development program into becoming a trained seeing eye dog, and how we evaluate the best candidates for training. We also discuss some of the reasons why puppies might not be suited for this role, and the care that goes into making decisions in the best interests of our handlers and the dogs welfare. 

Then I'm going to read out a piece from the Seeing Eye Dogs website about the exciting New South Wales roadshow coming to Sydney on the week of November 25th. 

Now let's dive into the process of info training assessments with Kylie. Hi Kylie, thanks for joining me on the show today.

01:09 S2

Hi, Harriet. 

01:11 S1

Can you please start off by introducing yourself?

01:13 S2

Ah, yes. My name is Kylie Gersh. I'm the Training Manager at Seeing Eye Dogs.

01:18 S1

And we're just going to talk a little bit about info training or, you know, we refer to it as IFT, and I feel like that's probably what we'll do. Sometimes I get an email from a carer saying, well what is IFT? And it's just because we use the acronym so much. We just...

01:32 S2

Yeah.

01:33 S1

We're a big fan of acronyms that said, yes.

01:37 S2

Mm.

01:38 S1

So when we're talking about IFT, and we're talking about info training, what are we... kind of talking about? What age are the puppies who even start this process?

01:48 S2

Yeah, a good, great question, Harriet. So when puppies are born, they're put into an info training group so that the carers know and we all know, staff included, when those puppies are due to come in for their training assessments. So the dogs can be anywhere between the age of 12 months to 14 months when they come in for IFT, as the acronym we like to use. And... the dogs that come in at that time, they come in to be assessed on their temperament and health, to enter formal training. So they're assessed by an instructor or our trainers, and go through a series of temperament assessments, including walks. And an assessment in a room-type set-up environment as well as health assessments to ensure they're suitable dogs to continue in training and place with our clients.

02:48 S1

So what is the structure of the walk assessment and how are they kind of designed to get the most information in the shortest amount of time? I guess you're doing them pretty quickly, right?

02:58 S2

Yeah we do. Look, we do, we like to... for the dogs to come in and settle into the environment that they're doing their info training. So if the dogs are coming into Melbourne, that will be in the kennel environment most often... for the interstate dogs that are raised by carriers, those dogs can be assessed either from the carer's house or sometimes I know in New South Wales they might go to one of the instructor's homes, and stay there for the week. So we like to have the dogs settle in so they get to learn their new environment, get kennel buddies first. And then we start to take them out onto the street. 

So we start gradually. We'll take them into an area that is a residential area... and we're looking at each walk for different things. So first walk is residential area, maybe with some stairs, a little bit of traffic. We're looking at how they might interact with other dogs that might be walking past, how they are in a quiet environment, how are they? We walk past a little park, so are they interested in children or how they interact with children? Birds... just how we observe, how they move through the environment and interact with the environment. So we start in residential because that's often a quieter area and easier for most dogs. Then we move into an area where there's lots of dogs, and we're observing how they interact... around dogs. 

And this is because it's really... important for our clients that they are able to... move through the environment, as best as they can and focus on work, as one of our other walks is then in a... in a busier environment. So we start going past... things like public, public transport. We just pass, past a train. We look at platform, how they cope with the height, open stairs, all the things that we know that are really important for our handlers, for the dogs to be confident and comfortable with. And then our final walk is done in a... busier area. So we're... gradually... increasing to that once they start to get to know the instructor or trainer a little bit better. 

And so that busy environment will have often louder noises, higher traffic volume, there'll be indoor areas, maybe how they go... on a lift. Some of the dogs do hop onto a travelator. We don't ask that, but some dogs do. And again, looking at some of those things or observing the dogs, how they are just... moving past environments that those places tend to have lots of people, maybe some dogs, birds, those types of things.

05:48 S1

And are you training the dogs there or you know, what level of kind of support or I guess, management are you... giving?

05:55 S2

Yeah. Great question. So what we're doing is we're observing their temperament, but we're also then giving feedback to the dog. So if they do something really well, we'll use verbal praise and occasional food reward, just as though as their carers would, particularly if they pass a dog really well, for example. We also do some level of lead management if we need to, particularly if the dogs are big and strong. When they come in... we might see how they respond to lead or maybe voice. If they're getting a little bit more engaged with the environment. 

We might try also to see how they respond to food. So it's sometimes, I guess the, to answer that question, Harriet, we kind of flip. So we're assessing, we're assessing them. We're observing them. But if we understand... how that dog might be interacting or engaging with something, we might go into a little bit of a training mode to see what level of training might that particular behaviour need. So it just gives us more information on how that dog might respond to training later, down the track.

07:00 S1

And I guess for this one, for puppy carers or anyone that might not be aware, would be that we're not doing this, you know, in a jacket and potentially, you know, things like head collars that they might be used to. Right?

07:13 S2

That's right... so we do check how they walk in full harness so that we're checking their sensitivity levels to the harness and handle going on. But most of the walks are done out, out of jacket... and... because what we're wanting to understand is the the dog's natural, and their training and their past history obviously contributes as well as how they move, move through the environment. So, we tend to do that so we can get a good understanding of their temperament... and their suitability to go into formal seeing eye dog training.

07:52 S1

So what are the factors that you're looking for in contentment or behaviour of a dog?

07:57 S2

Yes. Well, there's lots of things actually. I know if you, if... we have formal assessments. So as you're aware, the... Harriet, we use a system called - but for your listeners as well - a behaviour checklist, type of temperament assessment or behaviour assessment that's used around the world by many, many schools. And I think there's something like 52 categories of behavior in that temperament or behaviour assessment or checklist. So we're looking at a number of things. We're looking at how the dog, what I would say, interact or find reinforcing. 

But other listeners would know that maybe as distraction levels towards dogs and birds, particularly, or people, we would be looking at their sensitivities to different things. So to noise, how do they respond around noises in traffic conditions? How do they respond to their body being touched to the harness going on? How, what's their focus like? What's their ability or... confidence levels, it's called, that behaviour checklist calls willingness. How they respond to stress as well. So do, does the dog respond to stress by outwardly bouncing towards something, or getting more animated or moving towards things, or does the dog respond to stress more by... slower movements, hesitation, those type of things.

09:25 S1

And so when you're looking at that dog and you're observing that, you're really looking at some very subtle clues and pieces of body language that, you know, potentially the average person wouldn't even notice.

09:36 S2

Yeah. So we look at the dog as a whole, but, that we are observing body language all the time. So not only the gross movements of the dog, so are they moving towards something or are they hesitant or stopping or moving away from something? But we're also looking at how their tail moves, how their body moves, how their ears are, how their respiration rate is. Because that all gives us an idea about the comfort level of the dog. And it's really important that... the dog is comfortable and confident in this role, and it's really important for our clients as well. And the welfare of the dogs that they they are, you know, happy and content to to be out and about a lot.

10:18 S1

And having kind of... observed some of these walks myself, I think it's really amazing that you kind of have to, yeah, also look at then the difference between the other dogs and work out whether, you know, say, a wonky ear is an expression of something or just, oh, this is the dog. Or like, you know, the tail carriage is naturally higher or lower. I think that's really, yeah, amazing. And people probably wouldn't... consider that. There are so many differences even across, you know, the two breeds that we use now.

10:45 S2

There is. Yeah. Every individual dog is different. And I think that's why a lot of the instructors and trainers enjoy... the process because they're finding out about that individual dog. And, and as we go through the process, we find out more and more. As you mentioned, we might see a lower tail carriage and but that just could be normal for that individual dog. So it's us discovering and finding out information of the dog.

11:12 S1

So the matching process, I suppose as you're going through training, you know, I guess it's more kind of finely tuned further to the end. But when you're taking part in those... initial assessments, are you kind of considering the future clients or matching or even just match ability... yeah, during that process?

11:31 S2

Yeah, absolutely. So we we start from day one. I would have maybe some ideas about maybe this dog is really confident in all environments. They might have got onto the travelator really easily... really comfortable, near the train. So I'll get an idea about okay, this dog might be really happy to go in different environments. So I start to get, I guess, a profile of the dog and knowing early on maybe who that that dog might suit... or, yeah, what a... then somebody's coming onto our waiting list. I would know maybe the capabilities of the dogs in early training, and will be fine tuning that early on and all the way through training. 

So sometimes they develop differently than what we expect, and that's okay. But we generally have a good read of them really early on. Maybe the dog might be happy just to, I'd say... go at a shoppers pace, which is just, you know, strolling along window shopping. So they're nice and cruisy and at a lower speed, or a dog might be quick. So, but sometimes that can change - for example, as they go through training. But I would start to get an idea about what who that who that dog might... potentially be matched to. Yeah.

12:49 S1

And what traits might make you consider a career change?

12:53 S2

Yeah. I think during that... initial phase, it's often how strongly I would say they interact with the environments and how they respond to the handler. So, for example, if a dog is very strong on lead and wanting to pull towards a number of different things in the environment, that can be quite tricky overall to train, because the level of strength and interest is really high. The other thing I would say is concerns. So we know in terms of behavior modification and changing behaviours, if a dog has quite a significant concern or fear response to something and it's consistent. 

So for example, if they have concern around other dogs that they're heckling, maybe moving away, we know emotionally that that dog is impacted. And changing emotions in dogs is a long process... and we may not be able to successfully... work through those to a level that's going to be safe and effective for a client, but also for that dog's individual welfare. So because they have to go through environments where there's maybe lots of dogs or lots of people, I don't feel that it's... I guess I'd say fair if a dog is showing a lot of concern, because that's part of the role is that they need to be confident and comfortable. So if we were to put a dog into that environment, I feel that that's not fair for them either, because of the level of fear or concern that they have and the nature of the role that we're, that they're going to go on to do.

14:43 S1

And I guess as well, when it kind of comes to like the amount of support that they can have in that particular working role, it might not necessarily be sufficient compared to what, you know, even if as a trainer, you can kind of see something in the distance and then help them through it. It might not necessarily be, you know, possible for a client.

14:58 S2

Yeah. And we look at all of those things. So is it required that the dog is needing support at an early stage? So if it's so, if I give the example of dogs, if they're needing support as soon as they see the dog, that a person that has low vision or has no vision may not be able to give the same and unlikely to be able to give the same level of support to the dog. But we work through that. It sounds, I'm kind of... it's never really that black and white. We always will try to work with the with a dog. If we feel it's not a welfare concern for the dog, we're, you know, we will try to to work through some things.Yeah. Or not only a welfare concern, but if we think that the dog may be unsafe or for somebody, that's also when we might make the decision that the dog isn't suitable to keep going in the program.

15:54 S1

And I guess, on that flip side of what you were saying about, you know, the dog that is particularly interested or strong, that, you know, that would also be a, could it be managed by the client, and then at some point, would it be a safety concern if the dog is particularly, you know, would throw someone off balance or that type of thing?

16:11 S2

Yes. And some of those responses, if it's an emotional response, you know, they almost will revert back to that even... after considerable training. We know that sometimes they just almost can't help themselves. So if they're if their response is when they get a little bit like, they can't help themselves, if their response is to really lunge and pull towards something, then unfortunately, we know that that's not safe for the people, or our handlers that we work with.

16:41 S1

Are there any other things that you, I guess, are considering through that, you know, IFT assessment process that I've not raised?

16:50 S2

I think one of the things we've talked, if we're talking about the process as a whole, we've talked about the temperament, one temperament side of things, which is the walk side of things. Then there's also the health assessments that go that we require that the dogs have a standard of health and going into training, and then they share their lives with somebody. So we do ensure that they have a general health check, and that includes their past history all the way from when they're a baby to when they come into training. Then they also get their hips and elbows, x rays to ensure that their confirmation or... their elbows and hips are sound for to continue in the training. 

And as a seeing eye dog as well as their eyes are checked by specialist. So we do all of those checks to ensure that they are going to experience good welfare, not only from a, like I mentioned, temperament perspective, but also from a health perspective that they're suitable to continue in training and be placed with somebody.

17:54 S1

Oh, you did also mention, I forgot the... assessment in the room.

17:58 S2

Oh, yes.

17:59 S1

What's that about?

18:00 S2

Yeah. So there's a standardised assessment that's used by a number of schools. The technical term is Gilbert, but for anybody that's interested in that, so that room assessment is using, I mentioned before about that behaviour checklist, which runs through a number of different behaviours that we're looking at for a dog to be suitable. So that room is, it has a setup of different objects... and situations where they basically run through a different scenario. So the dog might need to get up some stairs... they need to walk over different surfaces. They'll have a dog walk pass... and they, yeah, there's a number of different things that they'll run through. And then they're scored against. Or information is taken down on that checklist. 

And that, all of that information together also supports our breeding, not only our training program but our breeding program, to... understand what the best selections that we can have for breeding and future seeing eye dogs.

19:06 S1

Is the breeder assessment similar or different? You know when you've got a whole intake of dogs, how do you decide which ones you might put forward to breeding... well, the ones that you want to keep the most.

19:16 S2

That's a great question. There's there's lots of different... probably would be great, Harriet, to have Nicola on the show because she, Dr Nicola Cotton... because she would be much, I'm sure, more... eloquent in how she does those... breeding selections. But I can talk about the temperament side of things. So we, if the dog comes in entire or desexed, we do the same temperament assessments... and then we just give the breeding team the information on their temperament and how they've gone through those selections, we might say... you know, giving them some behaviour observations. 

The breeding team will then go back and they do a lot of data analysis behind the scenes of siblings and past leaders, and there's a lot of, a lot of background work that goes into the actual selection. They also have additional health assessments, which can involve DNA testing. They'll have... echocardiogram for their heart. So there is a few different screening, health screenings that they need to complete to be selected as a breeder as well, so that we know genetically as much as we can, they're going to have good offspring.

20:40 S1

I mean, the whole process sounds pretty involved. Kind of quite amazing, really, isn't it? When you think about a whole litter of dogs or a whole, you know, intake of dogs coming in and each one gets quite a bit of a chance and you have to, yeah, make some decisions or... training review or something like that. It's, yeah, it's a pretty full-on process, isn't it?

20:59 S2

It is. And it's always, I always and my, I know the team always take those decisions really seriously. And we do sometimes, talk about and, you know, sometimes the decisions aren't easy and we will go back and forward or we might look at a dog a little bit longer... to understand that. So we try to have the same handler or trainer or instructor looking at the dog the whole way through so that we can see how they progress. And you mentioned Harriet about the outcomes. And I guess some of the outcomes is that the dog would be taken in for training and we say, Yep, we're going to... take that dog for training. We might be looking at a couple of behaviours, maybe that we're reviewing or trying to modify really early on, um, and monitoring quite closely. 

Then there is the option that we will put forward the dog for if they come in entire that the,, they'll continue on with breeding assessments and be potentially selected as a breeding dog. If they're not then selected for a breeding dog, a lot of the time those dogs will come back into training. And, depending on the reason why they're not selected for breeding... and then there is the other situation that we have through the assessments, whether it's temperament or health... determined, that that we think that this is not the best career for them. And that's always the hardest, I think, for carers to hear... that, yeah, that they're different, that there may be going on to a different career. 

But I would encourage people that I think they're amazing, amazing dogs and that they will go. Some of them will go to our, an organisation we work with that supports veterans and post-traumatic stress. So they might just go on to a different career. So it might just be that this isn't the career, the best career option for them. And even going as a pet, they make such a difference in in people's lives, if that's the the journey or where it takes them. You, I mean, Harriet, you know, we get lots of wonderful stories about the difference that the dogs make in people's lives... as as a pet, you know. So I think regardless of where they... go, they make such an impact on people.

23:26 S1

Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show and chatting about IFT.

23:30 S2

Thanks, Harriet. Thanks for having me along, as always.

23:38 S1

You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Kylie Gersh, talking about the behind the scenes of the informal training assessments, and how we assess puppies coming from our puppy development program. Ready for training. To find out whether they are the best candidates for this amazing role, and becoming a partner for someone who's blind or has low vision. 

And now here's some information about the Seeing Eye Dogs New South Wales Roadshow, taking place in Sydney on the week of November 25th, where you can find out about becoming a handler or about dog owner mobility. I'm now going to read out a piece from the Seeing Eye Dogs website news page about the Seeing Eye Dogs Roadshow in Sydney. 

We are thrilled to bring the Seeing Eye Dogs Roadshow to the heart of central Sydney. This is your chance to experience first hand the incredible work we do, and learn about the life changing impact of our Seeing Eye dogs. Whether you are a handler, someone considering a seeing eye dog, or simply curious about the process, this roadshow is for you. Why attend? Well, we're excited to share that the wait time for a seeing eye dog has been significantly reduced to just four months on average. This means more opportunities for those who are blind or have low vision to be matched with a loyal and skilled seeing eye dog sooner than ever. You can get your questions answered by our dedicated team who will be on hand to answer all of your questions. 

Whether you are just starting your mobility journey or are already a seasoned handler, will cover everything from eligibility criteria to the matching process, ensuring you leave with all the information you need. It's going to be an interactive experience. You can meet seeing eye dogs in training. You'll even have the opportunity to go on a trail walk and experience the incredible bond between a handler and a dog guide. It's a unique hands on experience that you won't want to miss. Who should attend? Current handlers looking for guidance or support. Individuals interested in learning more about seeing eye dogs or friends. Family members and supporters of those who are blind or have low vision. 

Don't miss this chance to connect with our team and discover how seeing eye dogs can make a difference in your life, or the life of someone you know. The Roadshow schedule... the Roadshow will be held in the following locations and will include an information session, a trail walk upon request, and refreshments. On Monday, November 25th, 2024, we are popping up at Vision Australia Ashfield at 10:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m... on Tuesday, November 26th, 2024 Vision Australia Caringbah Office, we are popping up at 10:30 to 1:30... on Wednesday, November 27th, 2024 we will be at Vision Australia Epping between 10:30 a.m. and 1:30 p.m. ... and finally on Thursday, November 28th, 2024, we will be at Vision Australia Parramatta office at 10:30 a.m. to 1:30 p.m.. 

These events are free and open to all. Email us now at Sydney clients at Vision Australia dot org to secure your spot and join us for a fun day of learning, connection and inspiration. 

You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Kylie Gersh, learning about the info, training processes, and what it means to assess a dog to find out whether they're the best candidate for a seeing eye dog role. If you'd like to find out more about seeing eye dogs, the work we do, or how you can help, head to our website at SED dot Vision Australia dot org. Don't forget that we are on the lookout for puppy carers in parts of Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland. If you're interested in raising a puppy in your own home for 6 or 12 months. Costs, training and medical care provided by Seeing Eye Dogs. 

We would love to chat with you about taking a puppy into your home and helping them give the best start so that they can become a seeing eye dog. It's an amazing volunteer role and we'd love to have you. Head to our website at [?] to find out more information or attend our next information session, which is on the evening of Wednesday November 6th. The details for that are on our website. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs show. And don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode.