00:37
S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the show with me, your host Harriet Moffat. Today I'm going to be playing two episodes from the archives. The first is with Kylie Gersh, Seeing Eye Dog's Training manager. We're going to be talking about cooperative care principles. That is about trying to engage your dog in the kind of care and handling and dog husbandry.
Then I'm going to be joined by Chris Edwards, manager of government relations, advocacy and aged care at Seeing Dogs at Vision Australia. He is also a handler. We're going to be talking about taking a flight with a seeing eye dog or a dog guide. So Chris is going to be giving some of our tips as he is a very well practised traveller, as are many of his dogs, racking up more frequent flyer points than even me and many other people.
So without further ado, here is my first interview with Kylie Gersh, Seeing Eye Dogs Training Manager, talking about cooperative care principles. So we're going to start on a really interesting topic about cooperative care. What is cooperative care?
S2
Yeah. Look, it is a really interesting topic. One of my favorite topics to talk about. So cooperative care is, yes, you could call it training, but it's basically training or teaching behaviors to a dog so that they can be active, willing participants in any kind of handling or husbandry procedures. So when we talk about husbandry, it's just any day to day handling. So it could be doing a health check or it could be administrating medication, but basically anything to do with their day to day care. It's really common to be taught now in zoos for animals to be actually actively involved in their care as opposed to using restraint.
So it's something that, as I mentioned, can be taught to dogs and all animals, but the most important part, so it talked about active, willing participant, but it is almost like a two way communication with a person and a dog. If we're going to use dogs as an example, and it really the idea of the training is that there is a way for them to be able to say no so we can teach them certain behaviors that they can do. So whether it is maybe they move away from us that they can do that and they know that that procedure is going to stop.
And the power in cooperative care is actually by giving animals choice. We know that choice can be a high motivator or what we call a primary reinforcer to animals. So by giving animals choice, then we can actually improve their welfare by giving them that choice and for them to be active participants in that.
S1
So obviously there are lots of benefits for lots of different animals. And I can imagine asking a horse to help. Having the farrier visit rather than just restraining him is probably much safer and happier. But what are the benefits of cooperative care for a human and dog?
S2
In particular. Again, I think I probably touched on it, but you're increasing a dog's comfort and confidence in handling so that can make things or an animal safer to handling could reduce any risk of injury from both the animal or the human in that situation. And it can also, you know, like I mentioned, reduce fear, fear or stress as well, and to the point where maybe sometimes they actually are finding that pleasant to be engaged in that activity.
It also helps us, I guess, as caregivers or humans, if we're working with an animal or a particularly with a dog that we can where we're able to do that, the care things that they're needing or administer, administer medication if they're needing to have medication. And it makes us, like I mentioned, safer for us and easier for us to be able to do that with the animal.
S1
I know in the past when my dog has been prescribed and my pet dog has been prescribed any medication, you know, there is some sort of kind of concern about it yourself. You think, how am I going to do this? And you know, when she's learnt that, you know, it's rewarding for her to be sitting and waiting nicely. It's so much more positive for both of us. So I can completely, completely get get that one applied. What are the benefits of using cooperative care for kind of welfare as opposed to restraint?
05:12
S2
Yeah, look, I think so. When we talk about welfare, there's there's a welfare kind of indicator which is around or how an animal is doing in regards to welfare around behaviour. And that's so the behaviour kind of element of welfare. There is an, an element of choice and confidence and free movement. So we are kind of using cooperative care, we are utilising I guess or opening that options for a dog to have more choice in what they do.
S1
And, and you mentioned it in regards to compared to constraint. Is that right?
S2
Yeah. Yeah. Look, our strain, I guess, takes away any choice. It takes away any opportunity for a dog to escape from a fearful situation so with restraint that it can make the situation worse or the dog become more and more fearful of having handling, having grooming or administrating medication because they are feeling like they've got no way to escape from something that's really unpleasant for them.
So if we use cooperative care and we, like I mentioned, allow them to be active participants and then reward them with positive reinforcement. So maybe food usually food is a good one to use in cooperative care. Then they're going to, one, have more choice. They know they can move away. They know they can say no. But they actually, by allowing that, they're more likely to engage with you. And then they know that good things happen when they might have to have a procedure.
So, for example, my pet dog now actually when she sees a bottle of eyedrops, actually comes towards me. So she actually knows because she sees the eyedrops as being a good thing and she will sit there, allow the eye drop or sit there and be happy for the eye drops to be popped in because she knows that there's some reward that comes afterwards. And she knows that if for that particular reason, for that day, she's not feeling like doing it, that she's got an option to move away and say not.
So she's got not only choice in the situation, but she's then also got the opportunity to to have reward for actually engaging in that activity.
S1
So what are the situations that and we kind of spoke about, I guess where it is useful but when would you maybe have to use restraint or when might that be necessary?
S2
Yeah. Look, I think restraint is still part of a toolbox that can be used. Um, sometimes medical procedures have to be done. So if a dog or animal really needs a procedure for their health and it's urgent, then sometimes they we just try to find least stressful ways. So maybe that is using some restraint. Maybe that is using anaesthetic because that's actually kinda for them to be under anaesthetic then than to feel stressed. So whenever we can we try to reduce the animal stress if we have to do a medical procedure. So that's where I think possibly restraint would be used.
The other thing is some behaviorist talk about we can actually positively teach restraint. So restraint is just I guess there's different methods of being able to hold an animal in place while you're doing a procedure. But if we actually did some of those same kind of restraint maneuvers or holding, they're basically holding their chin, for example, for maybe their eyes to be put drops in or their ears holding their head for that. We could actually teach that positively so we could actually use some food.
And there's a few different ways to do that, to actively teach restraint, to be positive thing, rather than it to actually mean that they have no choice. And it's really unpleasant.
S1
I think the the use of a bit of food like you said goes does go a very long, long way with some of these dogs especially our labs.
S2
Yeah. And look, like I said, sometimes medical procedures have to happen because of health and they that overrules um really anything because it's often particularly for urgent or serious situation where they do have to medicated or a procedure needs to be done then just trying to do it in the least stressful way possible.
09:52
S1
I guess when you talk about kind of putting things under anaesthetic, I guess that's the reason why we do kind of always sleep dentistry for dogs. All of those dental things are always under anaesthetic, whereas people you can kind of explain you actually need this. It's not quite as easy with a dog.
S2
Exactly. And look, lots of people are fearful of dentists. So, yeah, it's harder to explain that. You're right.
S1
So if your dog is older and has some reservations with being handled or treated, you know, potentially they've had it done before when it's been less pleasant, is it too late to recondition the dog to help them with something like cooperative care?
S2
No, never too late to teach anything, although because they've had this history of negative things happening, or maybe they have had a history of it being really unpleasant, it will take more time to build them up to being positive. So it's more likely that there will be there needs to be a lot of work done in in exposing them to choice and active participation and rewards in that procedure before you're able to to really implement anything in regards to cooperative care. So it's probably just the time it takes for them to feel comfortable.
Because if you think about it, Harriet, Harriet, they're coming rather from a neutral, neutral position and got into something that's really positive. They're coming kind of from a negative position, so we almost have to get them to neutral first and then try to get them into an area where maybe they they feel more positively about it. It's not not as easy, but it's possible.
S1
I guess, to use a cliche, Rome wasn't built in a day.
S2
Exactly. Yep. It just takes more more repetitions of it being pleasant because of that history, that's all.
S1
And I guess anyone that has kind of real concerns about that with their dog, I mean, reaching out to a trusted professional trainer is probably a pretty good, good bet with that. So if you're a scenario kind of like your instructor.
S2
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we can as being a dog instructors, we can definitely chat with any any handler about how how that to go about using some cooperative care or how to go about making some things more positive if they're finding that their dog is is quite concerned or fearful of either going to the vets or having handling or any kind of medical procedure as well.
S1
So if you are that handler who does have those concerns, it's it's worth reaching out to the team. And you guys can can assist.
S2
Yes, absolutely. Yep. We can talk people through it. We can even pop out. And it depends what kind of thing is happening for the dog, what what they are fearful of. But we can certainly chat about ways that they different strategies that they could implement to hopefully make their dog more comfortable or less stressed in those situations.
S1
And definitely helps us feel a little bit better too. I don't think anyone particularly wants to be the the bad guy when it comes to just trying to do the best for your your animal.
S2
No, And it's not easy with a dog. I think you mentioned how Harriet but that might move away or is really uncomfortable. It's actually can be quite challenging to be able to actually handle or administer medication or do anything. So yeah, it can be quite challenging.
S1
Well, thank you for talking about that really valuable topic. I think it's really interesting to think about how how we can move forward and think about helping our dogs.
S2
Thanks, Harriet. Yeah, great topic to to chat about and let's keep talking about it because it's. Yeah. Good one to keep keep chatting about.
13:51
S1
You've been listening to the show on Vision Australia Radio. Hope you enjoyed my interview with Kylie. If you'd like to find out about Co-operative Care and you are a seeing eye dogs handler or volunteer, reach out to your instructor or your senior staff contact.
Now, without further ado, I've got my interview with Chris Edwards, manager of NDIS, aged Care, government relations and advocacy at Virgin Australia, who's going to be talking to us about Flying with your Dog guide. Thinking back to your first flight with Eva a few weeks ago, how did that go and how did you kind of find it getting getting her used to the airport on the plane?
S3
Yeah, like it is one of those things is, you know, when you've had a dog that did over 200 flights that would almost get upset when he wasn't given his proper seat allocation and he was on the right side of the plane instead of the left. It is quite different having a new dog that, you know, needs to learn about, you know, where to to sit in within the plane.
And, you know, it's a big strange environment the airport and, you know, and certainly the plane experience is something that you know is not hard to replicate or sorry is hard to replicate within in training. So that's something new for them.
S1
I guess even it's like even a bus or a train, you know, you don't have the kind of pressure and the air closeness.
S3
Yeah. And I think I think that, you know, what I learned. So, you know, I think that the actual motion of, you know, the bumps and the the motion of the plane in Eva's case wasn't so bad. And that's because I think that they are they're quite well experienced in, you know, car and train and bus travel and trams and those sorts of things. That is part of their training and getting used to things.
What I did notice in the first couple of flights particularly, which is a little bit better on a third flight, is that when we got into high altitude, you know, she did you know, she did feel that that that different air pressure and started painting. I mean.
S1
I wonder if the the kind of ears popping sensation is the same for dogs. I'm sure that's probably more of a Dr. Nicola question.
S3
Yeah. I don't know. Like, I mean, from, you know, from my experience, we know flying with dogs a lot. It doesn't seem to be a major problem. I think that every now and again, like we all experience with our dogs, there's a bit of head shaking. But generally, you know, I think that that they you don't see sort of a great deal of discomfort on that. I think it's you know, in either case, probably the air pressure and obviously getting used to, you know, that sensation of, you know, flying and the noises of planes, it's it's a big experience for them.
S1
Was there any kind of preparation that you did to get either flight ready?
S3
Yeah. So like in the training, you know, because I travel a lot, we we certainly did a lot of training in the airport. Um, so the, it was important for me to be able to, you know, go to certain parts of the airport independently. And so, you know, we, you know, we had to do that. And for example, you know, one of the challenges in Melbourne is that the top of the escalator has these barriers to stop people putting trolleys down the escalator.
But, you know, that takes a bit of training for the dog to know that how to get through that because it's, you know, it's against their their sort of normal strategy of saying that this isn't wide enough for both of us. Let's stop. And so, you know, there's little, little things like that. But as far as the actual, um, yeah, plane trip goes, not not a great deal. I mean, I think it's about trying to keep, you know, everybody relaxed in, in the first case and, and I've got, you know, tricks about, you know, when, when you're travelling it's, you know, to get to ensure that the dogs are fed and watered at appropriate times.
You know, one of my little tricks is that I often will feed the the, the dog with water in its bowl with the food at the same time. Because then I know that, you know, that this is the time that the dog's got to drink. So it's not up to them and and they drink the water and the food at the same time. And and then I know that they're good for for, you know, a fair bit of the day.
S1
I think the toileting aspect of it would be kind of challenging. I'm not sure if Melbourne has one of those dog toileting areas yet. Melbourne Airport.
S3
No, it doesn't. So there is some of those dog toileting things around. You know, I certainly have been to the one at Brisbane and I believe there is one in Sydney now, but I haven't actually been to it. Um, but yeah, like I think that you know, Yeah. 100% I forgot about that. You're right Harriet. Is that ensuring that the dog, you know, be very conscious of where the dog's up to in its toileting is, is very important.
S1
So when you were actually kind of on your flight, what did you do and did you have anything in particular to kind of keep her occupied during that? Yeah.
19:00
S3
Look, I think it's for me. No, I didn't. Because I think, you know, particularly the first couple of flights, it is it is a strange experience for them. So, you know, I think, again, it's been trying just to keep everything calm. And so like, you know, either wasn't so keen on, say, yesterday's flight, which we were in row for this time, which was a bit unusual. And so she wasn't that keen to sort of like reverse into to her spot next to the window.
And so instead of sort of making a big fuss of anything, it just sort of gently, you know, coax are in. And certainly, you know, I've often got food treats in my in my pocket to to help sort of coax into the right spot. And so it's about you know, for me, it's certainly about, you know, rewarding the, you know, the positive behaviour than sort of trying to sort of push and shove and, you know, getting her into the right spot, which just, you know, creates anxiety for everybody when we're up in the air, you know, lots of just, you know, just gentle attention and some some pats when she was, you know, feeling a bit anxious.
But other than that, you know, it's for me, it's it's about keeping everything calm.
S1
[indistinct] I can imagine the kind of, if you do have that, I guess that lifestyle where you do need to fly, they'll probably keep that in mind and match you with the dog that will get used to it and will be kind of happy and comfortable in the end and not too squirmy.
S3
Yeah, I think that's right. So, you know, one thing about Eva, she is, you know, very much a calm still dog. And so, you know, when she's when she's in place, she'll stay there. But, you know, like, you know, a pat and a little bit of attention just to keep a nice and calm and never goes astray.
S1
[indistinct], do you have any kind of other tips, I guess, for a handler considering taking their dog on a plane?
S3
Well, I think that, you know, like a lot of environments that people take their dogs to. You know, the dog does get a lot of attention on the plane. And so it is about having your own personal strategies to to manage that attention, you know, from guests and flight attendants. Whilst, you know, most people are very good with understanding, you know, that the dog should be, you know, left alone to to extent, you know, you do need to have those strategies in place to to to have it so it works for you.
S1
[indistinct], are there any considerations that you make and this is I guess is going kind of even before the flight? Are there any considerations that you have to make when booking a flight, when traveling with a dog or a dog?
S3
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So it's it's one of those things that you can't do the same as everybody else. It is that when you want to travel with your dog, you can't just book a flight on the website. You actually do have to use the contact centre. Qantas have a special disability contact center now that Virgin has an accessible contact center, I think.
But anyway, they'll put you through and you do have to book in the first time that you do book with some airlines, they will ask you a little bit more detail about your dog around the size and the weight and and the breed. And I think that that's just around, you know, managing, you know, assistance dogs in general. And so there is a weight limit and a size limit that, you know, you know, all the seeing eye dogs would certainly fit within that.
S1
And I'm probably the fact that Eva is quite small is it's beneficial in your case.
S3
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, you know, and, you know, I certainly wanted a dog that wasn't too big is, you know, somebody that does do a lot of travel both you know around the metro but also interstate to have a dog that can pack away in foot wells and those sorts of things was really important to me.
S1
[indistinct], are there any restrictions senior dogs handlers have when travelling in terms of kind of quarantine or additional paperwork? Is there anything that you you might need to provide?
S3
Not yeah, not. We've with some airlines, I'm not sure whether any now, but I have had to when when Tiger was around for example, needed to provide some evidence around that the dog was needed on the flight and that was from it needed to be from a medical doctor. I personally refused to do that. And, you know, it got a letter from seeing Eye Dog to explain that it's a registered seeing eye dog. And and that seemed to suffice. So, you know, seeing our dogs do have a standard letter to support people on airlines if needed.
24:00
S1
You've been listening to this show on Vision Australia radio. Hope you enjoyed my interviews with Kylie Gersh, Seeing Eye Dogs Training Manager and with Chris Edwards, Senior Handler at Vision Australia, Manager of government relations, advocacy, NDIS and aged care. If you'd like to find out more about seeing others, the work we do or how you can help, head to our website at Vision Australia-dot-org.
Have you heard about our Week? Name a Puppy initiative. Next week is the 2nd to 9th of July in 2023 and it celebrates the history, culture and achievements of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and is a great opportunity to support your local Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander community and participate in a range of activities and events. Vision Australia would like to extend an invitation to all clients, their families, friends and Vision Australia partners and stakeholders and community who identify as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders to submit a special name for consideration to name a dog's puppy.
Submitted names will have a connection to country to recognise all aspects of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and heritage. The submitted names will be considered by a panel from synagogues, including First Nations representatives, and will be announced during next week. Names that are chosen will need to be an appropriate fit for seeing dogs Puppies. We suggest that a name be no more than two syllables.
One of the name selected in 2021 was Merle. She is a black singer, dogs puppy, and has since graduated as a working seeing eye dog. The example of the name MLA is submitted by Gabby, who is a one woman, and in her language the name Merle means son. Final submissions for names need to be submitted by close of business. Friday, the 30th of June 2023 Successful entrants will be contacted by phone and emailed on Monday 3rd of July 2023. Pup names and pup photos will be announced on our Facebook page on Wednesday 5th of July 20, 23, along with a short description of the name and who it was submitted by.
To submit your special name and a short description, send an email to clients at Vision Australia. Org or you can fill out the form which will be in the podcast page. Registrations are now open for track for Vision New Zealand. If you're dreaming of this adventure, challenge yourself and break out of your comfort zone with Vision Australia's trek for New Zealand in 2024. Next March 7th to 11 over five inspiring days.
You can explore Mother Nature like you have never seen before. Join Vision Australia's CEO Ron Hooton and a small group of travellers for an experience of a lifetime. Most importantly, all funds raised from the trek will support vision trails, essential services of the Quality Living groups and Vision Australia Radio to help support people who are blind or have low vision.
This is an accessible trek, so if you are blind, have low vision or have a seeing eye dog, you are welcome to attend. More information will be on the Omni page. If you're interested in attending and have a sing dog, please chat with your ideas instructor for them to assess if you're seeing Eye Dog is fit and able to cover the 60km distance over the five days in various terrains. This will be a life changing journey and will go on to help the Vision Australia Radio and quality living groups with essential funds.
Thank you for listening to the show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed and don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode of the radio show.
