World Vet Day and inclusive volunteering

00:10S1

On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I've got two interviews for you. It's going to be a pretty jam packed episode with lots of content. I've got first Doctor Ashe Mooney from Seeing Eye Dogs vet team talking about the World Vet Day. And just a bit about being a vet. And then I'm joined by seeing eye dogs, puppy carer and volunteer in our kennels and puppy block. Casey Hyde, who's going to be talking about her experiences as a volunteer who has low vision or is legally blind. So without further ado, we're going to kick off with my interview with Ashe talking World Vet Day. Ashe, thank you for joining me on the show today.

00:59S2

Thank you for having me, Harriet.

01:01S1

So it's World Vet Day coming up. So you know, happy World Vet Day.

01:04S2

Thank you. It's always nice to be recognised.

01:08S1

To start off, what is the role of a vet for seeing eye dogs?

01:10S2

It's a little bit different from being a regular general practice small animal vet, which is what I do when I'm not at seeing eye dogs. And here we help maintain the health of our dogs that are both living on site, as well as any dogs that are being foster cared, or any puppies or breeding dogs that are in our puppy center. We also provide support for our graduated seeing eye dogs, which can range from either offering second opinions or doing telehealth consultations, or if they're in the area. Sometimes we also examine them in person.

01:40S1

Outside of seeing eye dogs, what are the kind of ranges of of things that you're trained to do or that you do?

01:46S2

Vet school is very, very broad. And you're trained to treat any species except for humans, essentially. That's the only species that we legally are not allowed to treat. And so in vet school, the primary animals that you learn how to deal with are obviously dogs and cats, cows, horses, sheep, chickens, as well as some, you know, contact hours with other species like alpacas, goats, other other kind of things, chickens. So it can be really, really broad. And there's a number of career paths that you can take. Some of my colleagues are working with large animals now. There are some people that help advise more on like human health and safety at abattoirs. So making sure that meat is safe for humans to consume, that's the role of a veterinarian or people are in like consultation types of jobs where they work for pharmaceutical companies or feed companies, things like that, to make sure that all of that is safe for animals as well.

02:41S1

And that, I suppose, kind of comes under the same banner of study, everything like that. And that's the number of different roles from that one. Master's degree or...

02:50S2

Yeah. So, here it was a... doctoral program that I did at Melbourne Uni, but there are also Bachelors of Veterinary Science, so it just kind of depends on what university you go to. The degrees have different names, but they produce essentially quite similar outcomes. And your career paths can kind of, you know, be whatever you want then Australia and if you want to practice in other countries just kind of depends on the country. But you often just have to sit like a board exam in order to practice elsewhere.

03:18S1

So when it comes to members of the public who are interacting with... their vet, what are the, I guess, tips and tricks that you'd like them to know either what which helps make your life easier, or, I guess, courtesy around how they can treat their vets. As I know that that's a bit of a challenging one sometimes.

03:35S2

You know, sometimes people call me and they're like, should I take my animal to the vet? And my advice is always, if you are concerned enough to call, you should probably come in. And once you come into the clinic, it's really just about mutual respect. You know, the vets are only there because they want to help your animals. The easiest way to do that is if we can get as much information from the pet owner as possible in a respectful manner, because unfortunately, a lot of vets suffer from pretty significant verbal abuse. A lot of the time it's around finances, or it can just be because it's a stressful situation. Your pet is unwell. You know, things might be difficult outside of the consultation room and there's things happening in people's lives. 

But a lot of people forget that vets are people too, and that we have our own emotions. And sometimes being verbally abused when we're just trying to help isn't isn't the nicest thing. So, I just always recommend to be polite and respectful and just remember that your vet is, at the end of the day, there to help you and your animal.

04:30S1

Like you said, the financial part of I guess pet ownership is one of the one of the things that people do struggle with. And that's unfortunately something that I guess you guys can sometimes cop a bit of stuff over in terms of the difference between the kind of cost of animal and I guess, human procedures, is there any reason why, I guess people maybe don't understand that there's no, like, Medicare, that type of thing.

04:52S2

You bring up Medicare. So yeah, there is no Medicare for animals. There certainly is pet insurance. That's through private companies which range in what they'll cover. And that also depends on what type of animal you have. I do recommend getting pet insurance if it's within your means, but the main reason why the costs are so different is that in the human medical world, there's a lot of subsidies even beyond Medicare. There's, you know, subsidies for the hospitals, there's a lot of government funding going into it. Whereas in a private veterinary hospital, it's typically a much smaller business. We don't have the same subsidies and therefore the overhead is significantly higher to the business owner. 

That being said as well, there's a lot of issues with inflation. And, you know, sometimes drug companies go out of business and there can be monopolies in drug companies, which is kind of what's happened in like the UK and America to some degree. And that can also drive prices up quite significantly. In the past year alone, I believe that most pet medications have gone up by like 11 or 12% for the clinics themselves. And so obviously when we pay, you know, 10% whatever more to just get the medication in. We also have to pay charge the pet owner a little bit more. And people don't necessarily connect that. As the cost of living increases, so does the cost to the actual clinic. And therefore we have to increase the cost in order to keep paying staff a living wage, making sure that we're able to provide the highest standard of medicine possible.

06:10S1

Something really good for people to think about is that cost of living does affect also your animals and taking that into your budget just thinking about. Yeah, that the vet is not someone who's profiting from this, but that is something that affects everyone at every level.

06:23S2

And as well, if you don't already have a pet and you know financially things aren't looking great, I do encourage people to remember that pets are actually a luxury purchase. You know, they're obviously living beings, so it's hard to call them a purchase like they're an item because they're not. But if you don't have the financial means to care for an animal, I would actually just recommend against getting an animal and waiting until you are in a financial position where you know if there's an emergency and something happens with your animal and you have to get treatment right away, you're not put in a position where you don't have the money. And, you know, you may have to make a more difficult choice, that if you did have a little bit more money at that point in time, you maybe could have had more options.

07:01S1

I guess it's worth kind of considering things like some of those foster care programs, even similar to like seeing a puppy caring where you actually the costs are covered. So, you know, you get that companionship and you get, you know, a lot of the benefits of having the animal. But if that's something that is not feasible for you, you know, the financial costs of the feeding, the regular vet stuff as well as the emergency, that's a quite good option.

07:21S2

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And what I do recommend to people is, you know, one night in emergency can easily cost between 2000 to $5000 for, um, really any animal. And so I recommend that before you purchase an animal, you either look into getting pet insurance, which would help offset that cost, or you set that kind of money aside. Or maybe, you know, every month you just set aside a tiny bit of money into a savings account. That way, if an emergency does happen, you're not in kind of dire straits. And there are a lot of payment plan companies that exist, but they typically have quite high interest rates. And so that's another thing to consider. You know, they are there to help you, but, you know, they might long term have a bit of financial damage that occurs even if you use those services.

08:03S1

So one of the things that we talk about a little bit, seeing eye dogs, is cooperative care or talking about making the experience more pleasant for animals, as you know, I guess bringing your dog into the vet or bring your cat into the vet can be a little bit of a stressful situation. Do you have any tips? So what you'd recommend owners do to prepare for a consult, or potentially let you know to help you manage any behavioral issues that might occur at a consult.

08:27S2

I guess one thing would be it's always best to be transparent. So if you know your animal has had an interaction at the vet in the past where either maybe it's really dog reactive. And so if there's lots of dogs in the waiting room, it stresses your animal out, or it has tried to attack a vet or something in the past and requires a muzzle, those are all really important things to tell your vet first, even when you call to make the booking. That way, you know we can make sure maybe there's no dogs in the waiting room when you come in, or we let you through a side entrance so that it's not as stressful. And it really is just to keep everybody safe because one bite from an animal could be potentially career ending for a vet. 

And that's something that, you know, people don't always consider. I've heard people tell me, oh, isn't it your job to get bitten? And it should never be within your job to get attacked at work. You should always feel physically safe at your workplace. So if you have an animal where that's potentially the case, you know, just tell your vet in advance and we'll try our best to make them as calm as possible, as safe as possible. And that might involve sending them home with some pre-visit sedatives or something like that, just to help relax everybody a little bit and make it a much more calming for the animal and safer for the people. For things like cats, it's a little bit different. You know, those those medications might still apply, but cats typically feel safer when they're in a dark, enclosed environment. 

So the thing that I often see is most stressful for cats is when they come in on just a cat lead or they're just in their owner's arm, and then there's a big dog in the waiting room, and that stresses the cat out. I've seen a lot of some of the, like, bubble backpack carriers that are quite common nowadays, I found are actually quite stressful for cats because they're either too small for the cat that's put inside, like they purchased it for a kitten, and now it's an adult cat and it doesn't fit. Or they're so see through that. The cat is just as it's coming into the clinic. It's seeing all the cars go by, it's seeing dogs. And by the time it gets into the consultation room, it's just really, really terrified of what's going on. So even if you just put a towel over that carrier so that the cat isn't watching everything going around it, that can help reduce the stress levels for the cat as well.

10:25S1

When you were studying as a vet, you were also volunteering at seeing dogs. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

10:32S2

Yeah. So I've been volunteering, for seeing eye dogs since my first year of vet school. I've now been a vet for... almost six years, so it's been quite a long time that I've been a volunteer at kennels, and I really liked it as a vet student because we do a lot of health checks, you know, because they knew I was a vet student. They invited me in to help with the health checks and learn, about a lot of, you know, our cooperative care training, trying to make things really pleasant for the dogs and getting them to actually want to work with a vet. And that was really cool to see. And I was also able to see a couple of procedures when I did my veterinary placement. And it's just awesome to see such well-trained dogs that are all quite healthy and just learn what normal is, because as a vet, you have to really understand what a normal, healthy animal is in order to know when something is dysfunctioning. 

So by getting used to checking a lot of very healthy animals, I was more easily able to tell when something was a bit wrong and able to catch on to problems a bit sooner than I would have if I hadn't had that experience. And I think that, you know, animal handling is also a skill that you have to learn, and especially with big dogs, if you're not very confident with bigger dogs or you just don't know how to move around them or, you know, hold them in a way that's safe if somebody needs to take blood or something like that, that's a really good skill to practice with our dogs because they are so well trained and friendly. And then it's it's easier to apply it to, you know, in private practice when I have a more aggressive animal, or let's say, you know, like an 80 kilogram dog that is like larger than I am and I'm trying to restrain it. I'm able to apply some of the techniques that I learned as a kennels, volunteer at seeing dogs through those real life situations as a vet. 

And the other thing that I found really great about learning from seeing eye dogs was that because we have obviously low vision clients that we're giving the dogs to, I had to learn how to reframe an exam for somebody who cannot see what the problem is on the dog, because so much of our language is like, oh, did you see that its belly was red or something like that? And being able to interact with people who can't use that sense and trying to explain things in a different way, where it's like, okay, can you feel for symmetry? Or have you noticed any wetness or moisture in an area and things like that, and just just being more accommodating to, you know, people who come from a different experience and, you know, might have a disability and can't necessarily do what the standard is that vets will say. And just being a bit more accommodating for those people, I think is a really great part of the experience of volunteering here.

12:59S1

There are any tips or messages that you would share for anyone else around kind of world that day.

13:05S2

The biggest thing that I want to kind of bring light to, is mental health. And the vet community, you know, is something that's being talked about more and more. But unfortunately, I personally know a lot of people who have really struggled with mental health, and I myself have struggled quite significantly with mental health specifically related to compassion fatigue as a vet, which is essentially when you care so much that you exhaust your ability to keep caring after a certain point, there's a finite amount of yourself that you can healthily give to others to help them before it starts taking away too much and you start to suffer. 

And so I guess anybody that wants to become a vet, make sure that you have preventative mental health measures in place. I really encourage everybody to seek out therapy. And if you don't want to be a vet, you aren't a vet. Just be kind to your vet and understand you might be coming in for a puppy vaccination, but your vet might have just euthanized somebody's 15 year old dog and might be, you know, internally really, really struggling with that and having to put on a happy face for you. And that can be really, really draining for a person to pretend that they're okay when they've gone through something so traumatic and emotional. Um, and that's why it's really important to be kind.

14:12S1

A little bit of kindness, I'm sure, goes a really long way. So I guess really good for people to keep that in mind. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. And as always, treating the dogs and puppies of seeing our dogs as well. Yes.

14:24S2

Thank you for having me. I'm always happy to be here.

14:32S1

You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Doctor Ashe Mooney of the Seeing Eye Dogs vet team, talking about World Vet Day, which was on April 27th of 2024. Don't forget to treat your vet with lots of kindness always, and give them a nice big thank you for the work that they do. Looking after all of our animals. 

Now I'm going to be passing the baton to Casey Hyde. We're going to talk about inclusive volunteering and her experiences as a volunteer at seeing eye dogs with lived experience and low vision. So without further ado, here is my interview with Casey. Hi, Casey, thank you for joining me on the show today.

15:12S4

Thanks very much for inviting me.

15:14S1

Just to start off, could you please kind of introduce yourself?

15:17S4

Sure. My name is Casey Hyde. I was originally from WA. I moved to Melbourne for job opportunities, and then I fell in love with this beautiful city.

15:27S1

Could you please tell us about your volunteer roles?

15:30S4

Yeah, sure. I do live with vision loss. I've got no central vision, but I have side vision. So a little bit of benefit when it comes to volunteering. I took up volunteering at Seeing Eye Dogs Australia. Maybe in 2017. I wanted to give back to my community. I had a working guide dog, and I decided to give puppy raising a go in eight week old puppy called Molly. I came off the plane at night and basically handed me a puppy and it pooped on my jumper. So it was a bit confronting for me when you can't see, but I thought, nope, I had to deal with this. This is fine. I can I can enjoy puppy raising and it didn't deter me to give give it a really good go. There was no real facility up there, so that's why they were going out to ovals or uh, like shopping centres and exposure training. So it was great. So I kind of moved down to Melbourne for work.

16:19S1

And so what is the other volunteer role that you are taking part in at the moment? I sort of.

16:23S4

I sort of, bought a house around 2022, sort of after Covid, and I thought, I'll give it a go because I didn't have any rental restrictions. So I was in my own house. I found a friend who does running with me and said, could you be my reference to be a puppy raiser? So I had a chance to give it a go, and I applied myself through the paperwork. I watched some videos about how to become a puppy raiser. I went, there was no, like, face to face like, sessions. So it was mostly online, like, so it was a good, good informed sessions on zoom. And then eventually I received a puppy that was related to my needs. So as a puppy raiser with Vision Loss, I had to choose a puppy that was a bit older, maybe eight months, ten months. 

But then there was a bit of a hurdle. They didn't know what my skills were like, so they gave me a co-parent called Sue. So Sue is a local puppy raiser in my suburb, and she's an amazing lady, and she took me on as her co-parent. So everyone tells me the fun. Auntie, I have a lot of fun with the puppies, and I'm quite youthful, so all the puppies think I'm just like, the fun auntie, and I basically spoil them rotten and let them have boundaries, but also let them have a little bit of exploration while I'm the puppy raiser.

17:40S1

So do you have any kind of particular additional, um, challenges when, uh, you know, raising a puppy with low vision?

17:47S4

Yeah, actually, I had a few little hiccups. So one is probably public transport in, so I had to find a older dog to help with public transport because the younger pups can't actually get to the steps or the train stations or even, they can't have fear of of that stuff. So they chose, older puppies. So ten month old Zilla came into my life. She was being puppy raised by Sue, and I was a fun auntie. So Sue had to go off to Geneva for some work. And basically for a few months I looked after Zilla and did the puppy exposure training with the puppy raiser, puppy trainer.

18:23S1

And so do you also have an additional interesting, uh, house guest that, uh, that your dogs learn from?

18:30S4

Zilla was pretty amazing. She was living with me for a few months, and she was introduced to a rainbow lorikeet called Calippo. He's a feisty, bossy parrot with a lot of attitude. So basically, when a dog comes into my house, they have to respect the parrot. Because the parrot will take over the house. And it's lovely to see visitors come to my house because the dogs seem to adjust to the bird. The bird doesn't adjust to the dogs. Even the parrot took over her crate, so I was I received a crate as a puppy raiser. That's another thing. You get a few items such as crate and bed and bowl and and a little puppy pack. So you kind of ready. You got the food? And then the parrot was like, Well, that's that's a cage. I'm jumping in that cage. But it was a crate. 

So I had to respect that. The parrot in the crate, for a bit and took some photos and send them back to Sue, and she had a bit of a chuckle saying that Zilla was being flexible with the parrot. So I do have a retired guide dog, so Brigitte has retired, so she's basically the mentor. She's the calm, collected the rock. So. She literally tells the puppy what to do with the parrot. And so the parrot trust the the black lab. So Brigitte's a black Labrador. She's, you know, nearly 12 years old. So the parrot sits on the dog and does Guide Dog Express. So basically he's safe. He's safe with Brigitte. He knows Brigitte's, you know, a safe place. 

And so basically, when the pups come in, the parrot sits on Brigitte's back and says, you know, this is a safe place. And the puppy kind of goes, Oh, I've got a big dog and a parrot to deal with. So there's a lot of changes. But eventually Zaleha calmed down. We're all calmed down. We had a great time living together as well as, yeah, accessing the community.

20:07S1

So would you recommend volunteering to other people who are blind or have low vision, even someone who's potentially waiting on the, I guess, waitlist for a seeing eye dog themselves.

20:16S4

The puppy raising, you know, it could be temporary. So it could be like a six month stint or a 12 month stint. So it's not like you have to commit your whole life to become a puppy raiser. So for me, you know, there was some hurdles we had. The guide dog trainer had to change their training, adjustments to my needs. So. Such as? I'll give an example. We were doing co-operative care, and this is with Ziba. So Ziba was with me for nine months. So this is my recent dog. And there were some things that got in my way. Such as? Like the Grey Match that was not able to be seen. So the trainer changed it to yellow so I could see the dog on the mat and, um, then basically practicing with touch. So no visual cues. 

So basically it was all touch training with the dog. So the trainer had to work out and problem solve at the same time with me. So it was really great to work together. And I just can't believe how wonderful, you know, having a rewarding experience with the right provider, the right people, and the right dog, too, because Ziva was like, yep, cool. Being touched. Yes. Can do this. Yes, can do that. But there is some little hurdles. Like, for instance, I have a full time job and there's an office. And, you know, I did a lot of cane training beforehand, so I know how to get into work. And this pup has to deal with the with the cane. So the pup has to learn about mobility canes. And so basically this pup had learned so much knowledge even just before they go into their special, you know, guide dog training program. 

So these pups are learning with people with lived experience with Zeba. She's a black Labrador full of spunk. She had to learn about the mobility cane and not eat the bowl at the bottom of the cane. So that was pretty entertaining to watch. And eventually they get tired. They just go, oh, it's just part of life. And when she came home, she had boundaries. So, you know, you do have to like, use tethers. So, she doesn't jump on your couch or jump on things that people can see. Also boundaries in the kitchen so the dog doesn't pick up food. You have to be super organised. So every morning, like having a full time job, you have to be organized like having a child. So you have to put the child like my retired guide dog actually had to go to doggy daycare. So there was someone looking after my guide dog who was retired. So she had her own own doggie to take care to deal with. 

And then I was free to be, you know, 100% focused on Zeba and her training ambitions. And also the best part about, how to set it up in Melbourne or in West Melbourne was a WhatsApp group. So there was about ten women in the group. And the women all had different varieties of knowledge and understanding, and some of them had like 5 or 6 guide dogs beforehand. So they were super great mentors and I just fit into the group really well. So if I was sick, I could send a message to the group and say, hey, I'm sick. Um, can someone take zebra out for the day because she's full of beans? One of the women will go, yep, cool. Zeba's going off and I'll go, yep, how did she go? And they'll tell me all these amazing adventures she's gone on. So with that little support circle really allowed me to be able to.

23:11S1

You also have another role as well, which is on site. Could you tell us a bit about your on site role and I guess what you like about it?

23:18S4

Well, Zeba dropped off into a program in February, so I didn't know what to do with myself. I had a retired guide dog, Bridget, um, chilling out with me and a parrot, and I thought, gosh, I have a weekend. What can I do on my weekends? And basically the guide dog puppy trainer said, hey, how about volunteering at the kennels? What do you reckon? And at first the management was like, well, gosh, okay, she's there. She's gone from puppy raising to kennels. So they decided to put a induction program together. So it was, um, a lovely tour of the cedar kennels. And, and Stacey gave us like a tour and expectations and what we could do as a volunteer. 

And then everyone keeps asking me questions about what I can do and what I can't do. And then basically communication is a bit difficult if it's on, you know, white boards or kennel cards. So I just ask for help and everyone wants to help me. So I've become pretty independent with working at the kennels.

24:14S1

Has your experience as a dog guide handler kind of helped you as a volunteer? And then on the flip side, is there anything that you've learned at volunteering that might help you as a handler in the future with, you know, your next dog guide?

24:25S4

Yeah, this is a great question because, you know, having a retired guide dog, you know, the kind of. Slow and less energetic, and they've got their routines set. And you go, okay, cool. And when you're doing the puppy raising or in the kennels, every dog's got a different personality. So for me, walking into the kennels, I was more exposed to different personalities and challenges of, you know, finding the poop at the kennels, looking after little puppies and giving them that mum love that all these pups need. Gosh, I basically think that being a guide dog user or handler does reflect as a positive thing. You've got all these skills behind you. You can walk a dog, you can walk a dog with a cane, and a lot of people don't know how to walk with a cane. 

So when I go into the kennels, you know, they'll pass me a dog and say, take that dog for a walk and tell this dog not to eat the bowl on the cane. And it's just nice. It shows that that we all have different, you know, qualifications and abilities and they're very transferable. So you can transfer your skills as a puppy raiser to a guide dog handler. But it's given me more confidence because most of these dogs are not precious. You know, when we when we get matched to our dog, we kind of go, we're grateful for this guide dog to be in our life, and they're going to make us more independent. But all these dogs have personalities, so they're not precious and we always think they are.

25:39S1

You can have all probably have a bit of a different understanding on like how varied they are, like how very different each personality is.

25:47S4

Yeah. I've been actually, in the last I reckon I've been on the... matching like waiting list for nearly four months now. And I've really been pretty specific about my needs and what I need from a dog because I've had so much exposure training from all the different dogs personalities. So I need a fast dog. I need a dog with... courage. I need a dog with some bit of bravery. I need a dog that, you know, might need a poop in one spot and not run around and poop everywhere. So there's all these things that have changed my mind from, like, four months ago to being in the dog kennels with all these wonderful support people. And it's not just, you know, what they call kennel staff. 

It's like the volunteers are mingling together and we're making friendships. And now I've got all these new friends and all these new friends are willing to help me outside of work. One of the best example, my friend was sick in Perth and I was trying to make a poster, and I can't see a poster and or even how to create a poster. And I got my lovely women down in Altona and Williamstown to give me some lovely puppy photos of of happy puppies. And I got one of the volunteers to actually create a poster for my friend in Perth, and it was just that lovely support and caring attitude for.

26:59S1

Are there any other messages that you'd want to share with either someone else who's blind or has low vision, or other people considering volunteering, or just the general public when...

27:08S4

We have that, you know, attitude of like applying for a guide dog and having a dog and then having independence from the dog, that's great. But we don't get many volunteer opportunities. And I think that time to change that attitude and actually give it a go, like it's a bit scary at first and you kind of go, Oh, this is all new and these are all new people, and are they going to judge me on my, my, my abilities or are they going to judge me because I can't see? Is it a great environment? They will actually help you see if anyone wants to give puppy raising a go, it's great. But also, uh, going into the kennels and mingling with all the different dogs and people is also another good opportunity. 

So there's lots of opportunities to give back to the community. If you live with a disability, there's no gender factors, there's no age factors. There's no, you know, I'm tall, I'm short. I'll give it a go. I'm too old, I'm too young. I think it's just time. If you've got a bit of time on your hands and you're going, oh, I don't have a hobby, I don't have a sporting club I don't have, and I'm a bit lonely and I'm stuck on the computer all the time because I'm just gaming or something. Hey, try try the game called, you know, volunteering to be a puppy raiser or be a kennel volunteer. So there's some great opportunities in Melbourne.

28:24S1

Well, thank you not just for volunteering, but for coming on the show and chatting with me today.

28:28S4

Thanks so much, Harriet.

28:35S1

I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Doctor Ashe Mooney from Seeing Eye Dogs Vet Team, talking about World Vet Day and with Casey Hyde, puppy carer and kennels volunteer at Seeing Eye Dogs, talking about inclusive volunteering and her experiences volunteering with low vision and legal blindness. If you'd like to find out more about seeing Eye Dogs, the work we do, or how you can help, head to our website at SED Vision Australia - dot - org or head to your preferred podcast provider for more episodes of The Seeing Eye Dogs Show. Don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode of The Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. Thank you for listening.