00:10S1
On Vision Australia Radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. On this episode, I'm going to be introducing you to one of our new puppy development trainers, Steph Shore. We're going to be talking about some of Steph's story and background in the industry, before she gives us some dog and puppy training tips, including seeing our dogs, friendly games that you can play and activities you can do inside during the warmer months when lead walking isn't possible. Here is my chat with Steph. I hope you enjoy. Hi Steph. Thank you for joining me on the show today.
00:45S2
Thank you. Lovely to be here.
00:47S1
So this is your first time on the show and you're actually quite new to seeing idols. Could you please introduce yourself and your role.
00:54S2
Yeah. Thank you. Um, so I've just been at seeing Eye Dog since September, so just a few months now. Um, before that, I was working as an instructor at um, Assistance Dogs Australia for a couple of years. And before that, dogs for kids with disabilities. Um, so I've been in the assistance dog world for many years. But yeah, just new to the Seeing Eye dogs.
01:17S1
What kind of led you here?
01:20S2
Um. Oh, look, I always knew that I wanted to work with dogs, so I told my mum when I was eight years old, I wanted to be a dog trainer. And she went, oh, that's not a real job. You can't do that. Uh.
01:33S1
You can't train dogs for a living.
01:35S2
Nonsense. Um, yeah. And so, you know, I went to uni for something that, you know, I never used the degree for, and instead I became a dog trainer. So. Yeah, as soon as I, like, got my first dog when I was 14, I was doing, like, dog training competitions, like going out and doing agility competitions and obedience and stuff. Um, if.
01:59S1
Nothing else, just to prove a point to your mum.
02:01S2
If nothing else. Absolutely. Um, and then sort of got into the dog training through like private dog training. So helping with all those like, you know, dogs that don't like other dogs and dogs that hate being alone, um, pet dog classes, that sort of thing. Um, and so I knew I always like, I, I can't see myself doing anything other than working with dogs. And the thing that I enjoy most about it is the process of watching dogs learn and grow. Um, so this current role of, you know, helping the volunteers raise the puppies and work through all those puppy problems and teach them all new things is just just fits so well.
02:40S1
So it's a very different energy from that pet dog side of things. So. So when, when did you kind of switch over from pet dog to, um, you know, assistance dog type of roles?
02:51S2
Yeah, that was probably about ten years ago. Um, so I definitely enjoy the Assistance Dog world for being able to work with dogs that are healthy and happy and mentally sound, and you always know that there's a happy ending for them. You know, whether that's as a loved pet dog or as a working dog, it's very different than working in, you know, a shelter environment, which can be a bit, you know, emotionally draining.
03:19S1
Yeah. And I can imagine that, you know, there's probably some pretty challenging parts of either types of role. But there's more, um, yeah, more of a specific, measurable goal at the end of this particular one. Whereas I guess with some pet dogs as well, you wouldn't actually see them once they're there.
03:35S2
Yeah, you just get all the bad parts.
03:38S1
And then I guess we don't need you anymore. Oh, okay. Cool. So how is it going?
03:44S2
Yeah. Um, yeah. No, I love hearing the stories about them year on and, like, seeing the work that they actually doing out and about in public and the lives that they change. So yeah, whatever assistance role that is, it's really special.
04:00S1
And about kind of ten years on really, you all have kind of been starting to get to the end of the life, you know, working cycle of some of the dogs that you would have been your first organization. That's quite special.
04:10S2
Yeah. Oh, look, it's special. And it's hard like the doing some of the, um, retirement chats with people and being, you know, really emotional because these dogs are people's access to the community. It's like they love them as a pet and a member of the family. But there's this whole other, um, emotional connection on top of that. Um, so it's really, really beautiful, strong connection. And it is really hard when that time comes. But I guess it's a really good reminder to be in the moment and really like, you know, the time that you have with them every day is really precious. Um, and it's so much easier to enjoy life when you're out with a dog. They just they're out there living their lives. Um, and it's. You just can't be out distracted when you're working with a working dog. They just keep bringing you into the moment. Um, yeah. So I think they live more in their short lives than we do in our long ones, to be honest.
05:12S1
Yeah, it's a bit more condensed, but they, uh, they do a very good job of kind of actually being being a bit more mindful. I think really.
05:18S2
That's something.
05:19S1
People say they can learn from dogs.
05:21S2
Yep, yep.
05:22S1
So what are the types of, um, other, I guess, kind of roles and tasks that the dogs that you've been working with previously have done? And how do they compare to, um, I guess the work that you're doing with the puppies here now.
05:33S2
Yeah. Um, so I guess the puppy raising side of it is actually surprisingly similar. Um, because I guess the goal of that. Is to produce a dog that's emotionally sound, resilient, ready to learn. So almost all of the tasks that they learn as puppies are the same. The training after that can be really varied for an assistance dog. So there's lots of different roles that they can go into. So I guess with the Seeing Eye dog, you kind of know, like there's a sort of a set program, you know, they need to be able to do at week eight. They need to be able to do X, y, z and guide the person and ignore these distractions. Whereas with an assistant's role, they might be going to someone who is paralyzed from the waist down, but they can use their hands. So the person might want them to help, you know, taking their socks off, but they might not need help opening a door versus someone who has cerebral palsy and can't use their hands very much, might really want the dog to open drawers and closed doors and turn on light switches and stuff, so it can be really quite a different skill set, um, especially for the mobility clients. So it's very, I guess it's, challenging and exciting as a trainer working in those sorts of things.
06:57S1
I guess more individual like.
06:59S2
Yeah, much more individual. Yeah, yeah. Um, and there's sort of different roles that suit different dogs. So like some of the dogs that don't make it through seeing eye dog training have come to Assistance Dogs Australia or dogs for kids and done really well with just that different role and the different strengths needed. Um, because yeah, for the dogs that are working with someone who's got a vision impairment, um, you know, they really need to be able to ignore distractions out and about. Whereas if they're going to someone, whether it's a child with autism and the dog is handled by a parent, that parent can be responsible for telling the dog, you know, leave that dog, leave that cookie on the ground. But the dog needs to be really emotionally robust to go, yeah, there's someone having a panic attack next to me, and I want to help them and I'm okay. And we'll get through this. Yeah. Um, so it's it can be quite different. It's very challenging in different ways for the dogs.
07:59S1
I always thought that, uh, sometimes it would be like the more kind of sensitive dogs that would be really suited for a role like that. But it sounds like it's kind of actually not as much that as much as the dogs that are a bit more steady and confident.
08:12S2
Yeah. That's right. Um, I guess there's, there is a space for dogs that are soft and sweet and sensitive in the assistant's dog world. Um, if if they match to someone who has that softer personality. So someone who maybe rather than stressing up and getting loud and angry, maybe someone that shuts down and they really need a dog that's just going to pick up on that. Notice it. Yeah. Um, and help them through that in a very quiet way. Um, but for someone who, you know, has a lot of trauma in their past and they get really lost in their head, they may not be paying attention to the surroundings, they may be stressing, they may be doing, um, stims and fidgeting and yelling and, um, it can get pretty intense. Um, so a lot of the dogs that are sensitive and easily stressed, um, wouldn't enjoy that role, whereas some of the dogs that are really robust, really confident, really gung ho. So some of the more dogs that are a bit challenging as puppies, maybe a bit more full on body. I don't care if you tell me no, actually turn out to be really lovely autism assistance dogs.
09:23S1
Which I guess is interesting even thinking about, I mean, and to some degree, some of the seeing dogs are like that. I think it's like sometimes the the type of dog that's a bit more confident, outgoing is going to be like, you know, a really go go city type of working. One might have been a little bit challenging as a puppy. And that kind of it's an interesting thing. Uh, thinking about, you know, in the context of like, puppy caring, isn't it? Um, do you think surely this dog who is like this as a puppy can't make it? But it's not the case at all, is it?
09:52S2
No. And I guess it's very similar to, like, um, you know, raising a human child. So, you know, just because, like, I was talking to someone the other day and she was saying, you know, why does why is my dog so full on with the other puppies? Like, it's it's just she's not going to make it. And I said, hey, do you have kids? And she said, yes, I've got four teenage boys. And I went, so did they never fight with the other boys? And she went, oh, I understand, I get it.
10:19S1
I see, I see.
10:21S2
Yeah. So, you know, there is there's a developmental aspect to any mammal that's growing up. They're going to go through stages of, um, needing to learn different elements of social skills and emotional control and things like that. Um, and they're not just born with it. So. Hey. Yeah.
10:43S1
Outside of your, um, kind of, you know, um, paid role at singing dogs, doing the puppy development training work. Do you also puppy care at the moment, or are you probably at the.
10:53S2
Moment I am, yes. I'm raising Eugene, so he's just turned 16 weeks now. He's a golden retriever. Um, so I guess it's been a really long time for me since I've actually had a puppy from the eight weeks of age. Um, and I love golden retrievers. I'm such a sucker for a cute goldy face. Um, I was like.
11:15S1
Surely it's not just the aesthetics. There you go. You go out and say it. Come on, say you know the personality or like something else. Come on.
11:24S2
Well, see, I do love the golden retriever personality. Like the the soft, cuddly one. But Eugene, who I've got is actually more like a Labrador in a golden retriever body. He is just he's very gung ho. He's like, he loves you, but he's not snuggly cuddly. So, you know, I adore him. Um, but, you know, he's not your typical Goldie, I guess. Um, but, yeah, it's been a really valuable experience for me going through that. Like, you know, the diarrhea in the middle of the night and there, um, you know, I can't leave the house because I'll upset the puppy. And how do I get through that? Like, it's very different. Um, giving people advice based on, like, here's what the books say. And this is the theory. In theory, this will work. And then having it in your own life and going, oh, but I can't because there's currently three other things that I'm juggling right now. Yeah. Um, it's just a good reminder that all the carers go through the same thing. And sometimes you can't do perfect, sometimes you just need to manage it well enough that you can get through.
12:31S1
So is that kind of something that I guess you'd probably be able to bring to some of your, um, I guess, work with your own carers? Is that like I understand what the reality is sometimes, despite that this is maybe. Yeah. So there's the ideal. Yeah. And then there's sometimes the reality of living with a dog. It's like, don't work with kids and animals. Yeah.
12:51S2
Yeah. And I do both. So um, yeah, it's the, the old saying, you know, don't like perfect be the enemy of good. Like I have that wonderful.
13:02S1
But I like it. Yeah.
13:03S2
Like sometimes I myself. I'm very much a perfectionist. I want everything to be neat and controlled and perfect. And I just have to sometimes let go and go. You know what? No one died yet.
13:15S1
This is. It's okay. This is absolute control.
13:18S2
And we'll just, uh, get out the mop and we'll try again tomorrow.
13:22S1
I think I struggle with that a bit of some of my first puppy caring experiences and I. Yeah, you see that? We on the floor and you're like, oh, no, this is I'm like, they're never going to toilet, you know. Oh, you know, they're never going to be toilet trained. And then it's really just a wee. Sometimes a wee is sometimes just like one isolated incident. Just try again and then hope to bring it. Bring it back down. Even even sometimes older puppies. Occasionally you'll have an accident or or something. Yeah. And you're like, oh, maybe this was just a one off. And it sometimes is.
13:51S2
Yeah, yeah. I think there's um, like I remember back to like when I was working with, um, like private dog training and then sort of moving into working with, um, kids who have autism and learning a lot about emotional regulation and things like that. Um, for the human aspect of it and going, oh my God, every single one of these applies to puppies as well. Like, I think there's a lot that sometimes gets missed or overlooked or, um, sort of glossed over because we focus on, you know, rewarding good behaviors and not rewarding bad behaviors. But actually, like, if we can teach dogs to hit the right emotional state that we're after for whatever activity we're doing, the behavior follows really easily. Um, and having a puppy in my house has been such a good reminder of that, because they just up and down through the day, they're just constantly, you know, going through crazy tantrums and then fast asleep and then, you know, you need to find that sort of sweet spot. And it's figuring out all the individualities of a puppy living with you of what actually helps them cope in the moment, what calms them down. Because what comes my puppy down that I'm raising is very different than my adult dogs that I've got in the house.
15:09S1
And then some of the other dogs that are on your scheme are going to be different again. Absolutely.
15:13S2
They're all individuals. So yeah.
15:16S1
I think the thought about, um, kind of relating it to like people development is really interesting too, because it's like I think sometimes we get in the habit of, I think thinking like, oh, we're so different from dogs and we're so much more complex. But then we've heard somebody like, you know, especially been to some of the work, professional development type things or read some of the materials about, you know, dog training, dog behavior. It's like all like so much of this stuff is loose either loosely or exactly. To people. It's like the, you know, Karen Pryor, don't you? The dog book. So much of it is like, you know, it's how to.
15:48S2
Train your husband.
15:49S1
Yeah. The same examples of dogs to people to, you know, like, oh, and then dolphins to like, oh. Which, you know, it's not something that I'm, I'm not planning on raising any dolphins for assistance purposes.
16:00S2
You could probably fit a couple in the bath. You'd be all right. Yeah.
16:03S1
You reckon? Okay. I mean, my bath isn't huge. It. It be a bit like, um, that movie about that person that raised the Loch Ness monster in a bath. Oh, I.
16:12S2
Don't know that one.
16:14S1
Well, maybe I dreamt that. Maybe that wasn't a dream. Um, but, you know, I think the the issue really with assistance dog assistant dolphins would really be that the areas that they could work would actually be quite limited. They could only really perform tasks within proximity to like, water or.
16:31S2
Yeah, they could assist you with scuba diving.
16:34S1
And otherwise less helpful. But then they do that anyway, you know, apparently. Yeah. Well, you know, as in some of, you know, there's a whole swimming with dolphins thing. Yeah, that's a.
16:43S2
Whole I've heard some negative stories about dolphins.
16:46S1
Oh yeah. I think the more that you know about any animal kind of scientifically or kind of looking into it, you know, it becomes very different from that cartoon cute dolphin pink sticker thing that you've seen as a child.
17:00S2
Yeah, yeah. No, I remember, um, reading something as a young child and it was like, really glorifying how moral and noble and glorious dogs are because they don't have any of the foibles of mankind. Yes. And then growing up and realizing it was all bullshit.
17:21S1
And then you get into that whole thing as well about, you know, I think I've lost all about seeing this whole, like, dogs don't see color and therefore people shouldn't as a, as a, um, not being racist thing. And I think that's kind of ironic because one, I mean, dogs kind of also can see color to some degree. They can see some spectrums anyway. But also there are definitely dogs that understand labs better than labs, but labs better than other dogs. Yes. And they do gravitate sometimes towards their own kind. So it's kind of ironic. I mean, yes, it's a little bit, um, it's a little bit misguided, I believe that.
17:56S2
Yeah, yeah. I have had to field a couple of, um, phone calls from people who suddenly realized that their dog had never met someone of a particular ethnicity, and they went, it's that really embarrassed moment where they go, Steph, I think my dog might be a racist. I get, it's okay. I just get the person to give them snacks and it'll all be good.
18:21S1
Or it's like, you know, someone in a motorbike helmet or even, you know, something like, like a turban or a or some sort of, like, religious headdress or something like that. It's. Yeah.
18:30S2
Hi viz high Viz gets my dog. He's nine years old and he's still hates everyone wearing hive is.
18:37S1
Yeah. I mean all the race it is treaties.
18:39S2
Apparently it's. Yes.
18:42S1
I wonder if that's like a, I wonder if that's actually a color situation for dogs though. Because high viz is specific, you know. Yeah.
18:49S2
Yeah.
18:50S1
Interesting. Um, so I wondered if we had some time to talk about some dog tips. Yes. Um, I was hoping to pick your brains on as we're coming up to kind of the warmer, the warmer months, especially around some of the kind of holiday season. Yeah, sometimes you either aren't able to, whether it's whether it's heat or for any other reason, um, you know, go outside to occupy your dog. So I was wondering if you have any kind of, I guess, games or activities that, um, that are beneficial for dogs, especially even on program dogs, um, that you can do inside your house?
19:23S2
Yeah, yeah. Um, so one that I really love, especially coming into holiday season where you might have more guests than you normally would, is a mat training game or a crate training game. Um, so obviously we teach all the pups to go on their mat or on their crate, but it's really just teaching them different cues to do that. So, you know, maybe you'd start off, can I knock on the wall and then get the puppy to go in their crate and give them a snack, um, and build up to, oh, can someone ring the doorbell? And instead of jumping all over them and being crazy, you actually lay down on your mat? Um, and I'll sort of prep my Christmas guests. Um, I'll, I'll set up a little dog treat jar by the front with a little sticky note. It says, give the dog a treat on the mat. So they go, oh, this is a lot of fun. I get to help out with the puppy training. Um, so they'll come in and they'll almost, like, help out with your chill the dog out training rather than getting them hyped. So, um, that's a really nice one to do. Um, how do.
20:21S1
You teach the, um, how do you teach the cue that the knocking on the door or something is the cue to go to the mat?
20:28S2
Yeah. So when you're teaching a new cue, you'd give your new cue and then a cue that your dog understands. So if you can get your puppy to follow a trait onto the bed, um, you might knock and then get your puppy to follow. Straight onto the bed until they start to go knock. Oh, I'm really anticipating there's going to be a treat happening on my bed in a second, and they'll almost start to race. Race you there.
20:51S1
Um, if you've got a food motivated enough dog, they will try and work out as quick as possible how to get there. Absolutely.
20:57S2
Yeah. Um, so some of the other really fun ones to do on hot days would be maybe your dog's got like a favorite squeaky toy or something. Um, and you can actually teach your dog a little bit of a hide and seek game, putting the toy, like giving it a name. So you might start out with a really easy hiding place. So getting your dog to wait there while I put the toy just there. Okay, go and get your squeaky muffin. Um, and then you build up to hiding it more places. Or you can do it if you've got kids who want to do a bit of hide and seek game with the dog, um, they can actually go and hide somewhere in the house, and you can teach them the names of family members. Um, and they can be sort of running around the house searching for little Timmy who's hiding under the bed. And it's just it's a lot of fun for everyone. It's a little bit silly, but it can be a really useful, um, try and skill later on as well for an assistance dog, because they can go go to someone specific when you need help.
21:54S1
I mean, I know, I know with even with working, seeing dogs, I've been told, you know, some clients will say, you know, go find, you know, go find mum or go find Sue or go find whoever it is. I think it's, um, it's one of our volunteers that talks about her working dog that goes and finds his his old puppy carer, for example. So. Yeah. So that kind of, I guess is actually a working skill as well.
22:12S2
Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. So some of the other fun things that you can do, um, on hot days, like you can do fun little training games inside. Um, so sometimes we get really serious about training and think of it as almost like a homework chore for adults. Um, but it really shouldn't be like the the reason that dogs love work and working rolls is because to them, it's just all a big game where they get to play with their favorite person. Um, so you might do, um, you could do like recall races up and down the hallway. You could do puppy sit ups, puppy push ups where you get them to sit down, sit down. It's really good. Cool workout. Um, I love doing doga with my dogs. So when I'm doing yoga they want to be involved. Like if I don't give them something to do, they will be trying to stop me. So I'll I'll sit down and get them to like lay across my legs and I'll be reaching down and giving them a bit of a cuddle as I'm doing a stretch. Um, resistance.
23:11S1
When you sit doing a setup would be pretty challenging.
23:16S2
Yeah. Yep. Um, some of that cooperative care training is really lovely to practice on a hot day, um, where they might be a bit lazy and they might not want to be running around. Um, you can practice your chin rest or getting them to roll over, and if they're really relaxed and comfortable, you can do it informally, like, without giving them a cue, just turn it into a bit of a massage and see if you can move them different ways and really get them just exploring what feels good in terms of like some dogs love having their ears stroked, some love having their feet massaged, some really don't. So just getting to know your puppy. Um, and.
23:58S1
Just for anyone who doesn't know what is cooperative care.
24:01S2
Uh, so cooperative care is, um, essentially giving the dog's choice and consent about how they're handled. So it can involve things like teaching them to rest their chin on your hand or lay down and roll over so that when we're doing things like checking their teeth, giving them eyedrops, doing an ultrasound, um, they're offering those positions and they're able to move away if they don't feel safe or need a pause. So rather than us having to pin them down and force them to do something they don't want, they're actually actively participating in their own care. Um, yeah. So, um, other fun games would be things that you can set up, you know, at a Christmas party or things that I love. Because as much as we tell people, you know, don't get the puppy jazzed up and don't feed the puppy from the table, like, good luck. Um, people love doing stuff that makes dogs happy. So we'll just, um, give them and give them an alternative that's actually good for us.
25:04S1
Sounds like we're dog training them. Is that. Absolutely?
25:07S2
Absolutely. And they can have some cheese and chocolate as their reward for doing some good dog training.
25:11S1
Just to be clear, the people, the.
25:13S2
People, not the dogs. Yeah. So you could um, so for example, I often have some kids visit my place and their favourite thing is giving the dogs different types of snacks. So I actually set up, like I get them to help me. I go, you know, what's a healthy whole food for dogs? And you know, they've learned with me. We've done the research, you know, oh, they can't have grapes. We're not allowed to give them grapes. So let's do a blueberry and a strawberry and a piece of carrot. And oh, what if the dog were to eat a piece of celery and they can actually, you can measure it out with them. And I love that one because it's getting them thinking about, you know, what's healthy and actually being really conscious about that for themselves and the dog. And they get the fun of giving the dog stuff. But you know exactly what the dog is getting in. How much?
26:01S1
Um, yeah. Because if they're going to give something, if, you know, it's kind of inevitable, you know, it's much better for it to be something like that.
26:08S2
Yeah.
26:09S1
Because, yeah, things like ham can send them to the vet, you know, and that's. Yeah. Yeah. Carrot. Pretty good. Yeah.
26:14S2
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and the kids can even make like a freebie Christmas cracker. So if you get like, an old toilet roll, um, and some paper and you can put, you know, like one of those things, like a blueberry or a strawberry or something. Show it in there, wrap it up as if it's like a, um, pulley Christmas cracker. Play a game of tug with your puppy. They can pull it apart and get their treat inside. Um, so that can be a nice little, um, Christmas present for your dog. Um, and I would say probably at the Christmas party. Tethers are your friend, so give your dog their stuff, pop them on a tether, have get the people giving them cuddles and stuff, but just to keep them away from all the inevitable stuff that falls on the floor, there's there's.
26:59S1
Always going to be something. Especially. Yeah, when you've got, uh, yeah, family members, especially little ones. There's always going to be something tempting on the ground.
27:08S3
Mhm. Yeah.
27:09S1
Awesome. Well thank you so much for coming on the show and talking a little bit about. Yeah a little bit about everything really. I think we covered most of the things.
27:20S2
Well thank you for having me. It's been a lot of fun.
27:28S1
You've been listening to The Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Virgin Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Steph Shaw, one of our puppy department trainers at Seeing Dogs. If you'd like to find out more about seeing our dogs, the work we do, or how you can help, head to our website at Sydney, Australia dawg. Don't forget to check out our social media for photos, pictures, information and news stories around single dogs and what's going on. And if you'd like to find out more about volunteering with us and becoming a puppy carer supported by someone wonderful like Steph, you can head to our website and find out about puppy caring. We are looking for carers in parts of Victoria, south East Queensland and the Central Coast and northern Sydney regions of New South Wales to raise puppies for 6 to 12 months. And don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode of The Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia. Or you can check out our on the FM page for more episodes of this and other great Vision Australia shows. Thank you for listening.
