00:10 S1
On Vision Australia radio. You're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I've got two interviews for you. The first is with Phoebe seeing eye dogs handler to Angela and graduate of our youth program. We're going to talk about her life as a handler, experiences on the youth program, and partnership with Angie. We are open for applications for the Seeing Eye Dogs Youth program for 2025. Now, for kids who are or young people who are 12 to 18 who are interested in finding out about dog guide mobility. You can head to our website for more information about that.
Then on this show, I will be joined by trainee trainer Jack Lord to talk about the role of a trainer, and about how staff like Jack train our young dogs in guide work so that they can become Seeing Eye Dogs. Jack's been on the show before in his previous roles throughout his years at seeing Eye Dogs. So if you'd like to listen to other episodes of the show, including some great interviews with him, they're available to stream as a podcast on our Omni FM platform or your preferred podcast platform.
And now kicking off this show, here's my interview with Phoebe. I hope you enjoy. Hi, Phoebe. Thank you for joining me on the show today.
01:33 S2
Thanks for having me.
01:34 S1
Could you please start off by introducing yourself?
01:36 S2
Yes, I can most definitely do that. Hi, my name is Phoebe. I'm 17 years old. I go to high school and I'm currently in year 11.
01:49 S1
It's kind of getting to the pointy end then, really, isn't it?
01:51 S2
In a good way. And not in a good way.
01:54 S1
Well, at least you have someone by your side with you for school. Now, could you please introduce your Seeing Eye Dog, and tell us a bit about her and how long you've been working together?
02:03 S2
Yes, I have a beautiful female golden Labrador named Angie. She's three years old. We've been working together for 17 months now, but her full name is Angela. But she gets called Angie more than Angela.
02:23 S1
So what types of outings have you done together?
02:26 S2
The types of outings Angie and I have done together... well, I go to the gym after school at least three times a week. I used to not be able to do that without having her, so she definitely brought more independence in that circumstance. I go to Melbourne for shopping quite a few times with my older siblings. I've flown on planes a few times for various different camps in Australia - Braille music camp, blind cricket camp and she also comes with me when I volunteer at Vision Australia Seeing Eye Dogs down in Melbourne.
03:09 S1
It sounds like a very, very busy life that you've got there going on. Do you? Do you sleep, or is that not important?
03:17 S2
Well, I try my best to. She sleeps more than I do. Sometimes I'm like, Can we switch places today? I really can't be bothered to be the human. I'd like to sleep on a bed underneath the desk today.
03:30 S1
Hey, Angie, would you mind doing this test for me, please? Get an... please get an A+ and I will sleep.
03:36 S2
Yeah, literally. And she's like, Mm, let me think about that...No.
03:40 S1
It's really, it is really unfair. I took one of my dogs to Pilates the other day, and the instructor said, It's really unfair that you're sweating and fighting for your life. And she is just lying there peacefully. I said, I know, man, it's always, yep.
03:55 S2
That's the same at the gym. I'm working out and she's just taking a good old nap next to me and I'm like, Oh, come on, pull your weight.
04:04 S1
Come on, man, do something. Take turns. Even... when you know you're traveling on the train and the dog starts to sleep and you're like, Can't you be the one that waits for our station? Let us know when to get off for once. Come on, man.
04:15 S2
Yeah, I know, you know somehow which door we're getting off. But can't you tell me when our station is, that we want? No. Okay.
04:24 S1
Fine. I just have to be the responsible one in this relationship.
04:29 S2
Yeah, yeah, I have to do everything. Okay.
04:32 S1
Thinking back to it, what made you decide to start thinking about getting a Seeing Eye Dog?
04:36 S2
Well, what started me thinking about getting a Seeing Eye Dog would probably be... well, dogs are my favorite animal. I love them, I say that they're my spirit animal, and since having my vision impairment since I was four and a half, and then hearing about guide dogs and what they do for people, and then talking to my own [?name] who had experience with training guide dogs, I was like, Oh, it'd be such a great experience to be able to like, walk with one.
So one day I ended up being in Melbourne with my family and Brooke Anderson emailed my mum because her and my mum were chatting. Don't know about what, but it was a while ago and she was like, Oh, I heard that Phoebe was interested in having a Seeing Eye Dog or at least trying one. Would you like to come to the Kensington site? And I can find one, and we can do a little, a little walk with one. And then I did a little walk with one around Seeing Eye Dogs kennels site and then in the taxi I've like, I have a whole note in my phone of like how one would be able to change my life and how much freedom I felt like I had with it.
Only though I did like a 15 minute walk with one and like I trusted my whole life with them like you do, even when you're fully matched. And then my own new Darren, who was a part of the program in 2022. So he let my OM Paula know about the program. They were thinking about setting up, and she was like, Phoebe would love to be a part of the program. That's when the Seeing Eye Dog Youth program started in 2022.
06:38 S1
It almost seems like it's a series of different things that led you to this, like permanent part of your life. Now it was like, here's one sign, and then we're going to continue giving them to you until you say yes.
06:50 S2
Literally.
06:52 S1
Doesn't sound like there was a whole lot of convincing.
06:55 S2
No, I always knew I wanted one, but like, it sort of, yeah, fell in a line of different things that happened to become a Seeing Eye Dog handler.
07:06 S1
So what was the Youth Program actually like, and how did you find that it prepared you for having Angie?
07:12 S2
The Seeing Eye Dog program was really a great experience for me personally. So once a month we would meet on a Zoom, since there was people from Victoria and Brisbane in my group. So it doesn't matter what state you're in, they like make it able for you to do it wherever you are if you're interested in it. So yeah, we would meet monthly. We'd have different topics and then each month there would be a target. You would have to meet with your program for whatever we had discussed that month, like whatever topic we discussed of [?Onam] that month, and then we would have two camps in the year that we would be down at Kensington in the house of Vision Australia.
We would be matched with a dog, so we would have to take care of the dog, feed the dog, toilet the dog. We did a bit of grooming of the dog. So it gave you first-hand experience of what an actual day would be if you did have a Seeing Eye Dog, which I found really handy. But yes, I know every dog is different. Just because you have 1 or 2 dogs on two different camps won't mean you'll get that same dog. Because I had two male black labs on the two camps I had, and I have a female yellow lab. So like, dogs are different. They're all trained the same doesn't mean they'll act the same.
So yeah, it gave good first hand experience. And like, yes, you're in charge of the dog, but you also have to take care of the dog like it's not going to feed itself and toilet itself, because if it fed itself, I don't think it would stop eating since it's a Labrador, they might eat the whole 20 kilo bag of food and that would not turn out well.
09:05 S1
No, I think you'd end up having a bit of an unexpected and expensive vet trip in that case. I think you're right. Yes, because it's not just quite as simple as waking up. And then out you go. There's other dog responsibilities that you have to do. Crazy.
09:17 S2
Very much so, because you have to look at the weather and see what you need to wear, and then also what your dog will need to wear like a raincoat, because my dog does not like getting rained on, but she likes swimming. So then whenever it's raining, she has a raincoat on. Yes, we don't like getting rained on, but we'll swim.
09:36 S1
It's the wrong kind of wet. Didn't you know? Yeah.
09:39 S2
Literally. So, yeah. You have to look at the weather for yourself, and then you have to look at the weather for your dog. And then if it's going to be hot, how hot is it going to be? Because you'll need water for your dog. Well, you always need water for your dog, but if it's hot, you might need more water than you would in winter. And then if it's going to be really hot, you might need the shoes to protect their little feet from the pavement.
10:06 S1
So lots and lots of things that you kind of learned, and I guess you have to think about, which I suppose then when you went to class, there was kind of a little bit less that you had to learn about on that spot where, you know, your client training, when you're when you're actually working with Angie. So would you recommend taking part in the youth program?
10:24 S2
I would most definitely recommend to those that are arming and arring about getting a Seeing Eye Dog. Just because you do the program and you get that experience, you might actually realise that you're not quite ready for one, which is also okay, but then at least you'll know. So then you can do what you need to do. Maybe like upskill your own skills and then try and put your application in to get one. Then knowing you're not ready but you put your application in anyway, but then you do get a dog and then it's sort of a difficult spot to be in if you have one, but you're not quite ready because yes, they are a lot of responsibility.
And so yeah, I think it's a great experience for everyone that's a young adult in high school that are thinking about it, not quite sure have thought about it and I knew I wanted one. But for those that did my program, then they realised, yes, I find that one will be handy, but not quite yet because maybe it's just not the right time. So then at least you know. And then you can come back. And then when you know that you're ready, that there's going to be a dog somewhere for you in the future, that you're not going to not have a dog when you're ready.
11:46 S1
It's... not like a now or never thing. It's just potentially. And, you know, like you said, you do learn a lot about how much work it is to care for a dog. And if you're not someone that's as much of a dog lover as you are, then maybe they might have realised that actually dogs are, you know, they are a living, breathing, you know, responsibility.
12:06 S2
Yes. And they do like to test the boundaries too.
12:10 S1
I feel like she's probably also testing you because you probably test her in other ways too. Yes. I feel like sometimes they like to give it back just a little bit, you know? Yeah.
12:19 S2
To make sure you're paying attention, they're like, okay, I'll do this. Oh, you are paying attention.
12:25 S1
Oh, okay. Fine. Yeah, I see I see how it is. I'll have to be, I'll have to think more about this next one.
12:32 S2
Yeah, literally.
12:34 S1
So just to finish off, is there anything else that you'd like to share either about the youth program or about having a Seeing Eye Dog?
12:40 S2
I found having a Seeing Eye Dog really freedom feeling and giving me more independence, and I'm able to walk more confidently and much, much faster than I would with my white cane. Since Seeing Eye Dogs are obstacle avoiders, and a white cane is an obstacle detector. But most definitely. I used to get 3 to 4 visual fatigue headaches a week from concentrating, not tripping over gutters or e-scooters left in the middle of the footpath. But having Angie, I have no visual fatigue, headaches or don't even notice that I have a visual fatigue headaches and she takes that eyestrain away since yes, she walks me around obstacles that I don't even realise that are there, or would think that's an obstacle at all. I feel a move.
So I move the way that she does, and then she goes back to the straight line of path, which yes, has increased my walking speed. Most definitely. No one can keep up with me.
13:51 S1
So it's like if life was a race, you're now winning the race.
13:56 S2
Yes. Most definitely.
13:58 S1
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing a bit of your story, and about the Youth Program.
14:04 S2
No, thank you.
14:11 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with Phoebe. We are open for applications for the youth program in 2025 now. So if you are blind or have low vision and you're aged 12 to 18 and you're interested in finding out dog guide mobility and working with senior staff and your O&M to either prepare yourself for a seeing eye dog or find out more, you can head to our website at sed.visionaustralia.org - or you can email Brooke Anderson at Brooke Anderson at Vision Australia dot org. Or you can give Seeing Eye Dogs a ring on 1800 037 773.
Now here is the second part of my show for today, which is an interview with Jack Lord, trainee trainer. I hope you enjoy. Hi Jack, thank you for joining me on the show today.
15:01 S3
Thanks, Harriet. Thanks for having me.
15:02 S1
Could you please start off by introducing yourself? Anything you'd like to share?
15:06 S3
Sure. My name's Jack. I've been on the radio show before. I'm one of the trainee trainers here at Seeing Eye Dogs, and I've been with Vision Australia for about seven years now.
15:16 S1
So what is the role of a trainee trainer?
15:20 S3
Back to being a trainee. So I'm meant to be qualifying in January and February. But basically what we do is we get the dogs [?at iffed] so they're in for training date once they finish their puppy development training. They usually run 11 to 12 months old at that point. And then we'll have them for about 16 weeks just for their sort of formal training program when we get them ready for their clients, basically.
15:43 S1
And so you have said that you worked at Seeing Eye Dogs for about seven years. What roles and experience do you bring to your current role?
15:50 S3
Well, I've been in pretty much every department now. So I started in... kennels as a casual. I was just working on the weekends a couple days a week, and then that sort of moved into a permanent part time position, was in kennels for a few years, did some work in our puppy centre as well with the neonates and stuff. So that was really fun. And then I moved into the puppy development training department, which was really good. So I did that for a couple of years. That was basically training the dogs from eight weeks up until around 1112 months and training the carers up as well, which was super fun. And then yeah, I stepped into this role about just over a year ago now. So I'm really, really enjoying myself.
16:29 S1
So essentially you've kind of done the whole life cycle, like from birth to graduation.
16:36 S3
It's been an amazing journey so far. So I've been very blessed to having seen pretty much every stage. So it's been really good.
16:42 S1
You've gone from puppy development, so, you know, taking the pups from eight weeks to 12 months to now starting a new role where you're getting them at 12 months. So you've seen it before. And even though the dogs are now going to be coming on, you know, and you'll train them, even though they weren't the dogs that you've had, you've kind of know what the background is like and what experiences that most of them have kind of roughly had.
17:02 S3
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All the training that the... carers and the development team put into them is, it's super important. Otherwise we basically wouldn't have good dogs to train at 12 months without all that hard work in Puppyhood.
17:14 S1
So and when they arrived to you at 12 months, they, they're lovely dogs and they walk nicely and they... hopefully ignore distraction, that type of thing. But, you know, they don't know any guide work. How do you start training those, you know, 12 to 14 month old dogs in actual guiding?
17:29 S3
That's a great question. I would say that in the puppy development group, they probably do most of the hard work for us. A lot of that is, yeah, getting the dogs nice and settled with their home behaviour, their settled in public, they've got a good toileting routine, they've got some basics down pat, so it gives us a lot to work with. But what we start doing is basically it's a 16 week training program, give or take, and we basically start off with a few weeks of really strong foundational behaviors and getting those behaviors going. So generally we're in the MTC, which this is our indoor training facility, and we're in there for probably about three weeks ish before we start taking the dogs out on the street. And we basically just give them all all the basic skills that they need in there.
So a lot of obedience. We do a lot of platform training with the dogs as well, which we can use down the track. We introduce the dogs to their harness. We do that quite slowly as well. So we use a soft fabric handle, we get them comfortable moving in that, and then we move on to, sort of that standard metal handle as well and get them moving in that. And then once they've got some of the basics down pat inside, we start slowly transitioning it to the street, basically just build and build and build over 16 weeks to the point where, you know, we can work them in the city centre, basically at the end of the training program where there's a lot going on, but we sort of slowly build the dogs up over over those few weeks.
18:53 S1
And what's the benefit of starting inside?
18:56 S3
The benefit of starting inside is that you can basically control that environment. So if we were to go and train the dogs on the street, they don't know things. There's a lot going on. They can get easily distracted. It's harder for them to focus. So being able to actually control that indoor environment where it's a bit quieter, it's just the trainer and the training dogs. It just provides a better environment for learning, especially in those early stages.
19:22 S1
So you've kind of covered it a bit, but is there anything else you'd like to add about what you work on and how that changes through the cycle? And I'm guessing you're not, even when you started inside, you're probably not doing particularly advanced guide work until a little bit later on, too.
19:34 S3
Yeah, exactly. So in the early stages, what the main thing we want the dogs to be doing is learning to lead out in a harness. So it's basically just confidently kind of walking in front of the handler with some nice handle tension. Once we can get that kind of movement going, that real basic behavior, we can start adding things in later on down the track. We teach the dogs right shoulder work and obstacle work. Just being really polite to pedestrians basically teach the dogs to have a bubble around themselves and around the handler.
20:05 S1
Can you just really quickly explain what right shoulder work is for anyone that's not aware?
20:09 S3
Yeah, right. Right shoulder work is basically anything that comes in contact with my right shoulder. The dog needs to keep me out of the way of it, basically, because the shoulders are the widest part of our body. If something is going to interact with us, it's pretty much going to interact with our right shoulder because the dog is on our left hand side.
20:25 S1
Sorry. Continue.
20:27 S3
No, you're all good. So yeah, it's a lot a lot of obstacle work. We teach the dogs, obviously to target down curbs, maintain straight lines when they're crossing roads. We obviously teach them to be mindful around traffic. And yeah...
20:42 S1
It's quite amazing how much you teach them so fast. You know, going from kind of not really knowing any guiding and even like the position, the walk that they're walking is very different at 12 months. And then and then being able to be blindfolded, or then with a handler after 16 to 20 weeks.
20:58 S3
Yeah, I mean, it does fly by. You're absolutely you're absolutely right. But I guess because, you know, we're with those dogs all day, every day. The reinforcement rate's really, really high. They're kind of already in the rhythm of learning. So they do pick things up quite quickly. Still even surprises me how quickly dogs pick things up. So yeah, it does fly by.
21:14 S1
Can you explain a little bit more about the, you know, training philosophy or about kind of positive reinforcement?
21:20 S3
Yes. So we've obviously a very positive based training philosophy here. So we use food based rewards. We also can use other reinforcers as well depending on what the dog is rewarded by intrinsically. So obviously pats some dogs really like toys. So you can integrate toys as a reward as well. Doesn't work for all dogs. But yeah, basically just a lot of food reward.
21:45 S1
Which is one of the perks of using Labradors. But I guess that's kind of up to the trainer to work out what that preferred reinforcer is.
21:52 S3
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've met some Labradors that, you know, they'll take food, but they're not intrinsically motivated by it. I've had dogs that prefer toys. So yeah, it just really depends on the individual. But yeah, I'd say 99% of the time the the food works quite well.
22:08 S1
And I think going with the Labradors, although, you know, you might have some that are less foodie at least, you know, probably the majority will be a little bit simpler. If you were training like toy poodles it might be pretty tricky.
22:20 S3
Yeah, exactly. And like, look, we we want the dogs to work with us because they want to work with us. We don't want the dogs to work with us because they feel they have to. So that's kind of the ethos we we work around.
22:32 S1
I do always find that quite reassuring. As someone who raises pups, that it's if the role's not right for them or if they don't want to do it, they're not going to be forced into it. I get a lot from members of the public where they say, I can't believe you make your dog be a slave. Like it's like, no, not at all. They really...
22:48 S3
Yes. Yeah. It doesn't work like that. Yeah. Yeah. The ones that don't want to work or it's just not right for them or they're not enjoying it. You know, we could potentially look at other working roles. Some of them are a little bit less intense, and sometimes it's just the pet life. Sometimes it's just not meant to be.
23:02 S1
Could you explain a little bit about, I guess, what a typical day in your life is as a trainer?
23:07 S3
Yeah. So I mean, it depends on what week we're in. But in the early stages and those first few weeks, say, of training, we basically we turn up at 7 am, we go into the kennels, we help clean up a little bit, we feed the dogs, and then basically the dogs will be taken into the MTC, where we've got some crates and some bedding set up, and we'll usually have all all the dogs there. So normally you have a string of about seven training dogs. And then yeah, we'll just work them one by one. So we just sort of work in a cycle, do a bit of training, pop one back, get the next one.
And as we sort of move on to the street and stuff like that, instead of loading the dogs into the MTC, we'll move them into the vans and we'll start doing some walks about Kensington. And then further down the track we'll go into sort of more busy, exciting areas with them. But yeah, basically just with their training all day.
24:02 S1
And you're just doing kind of running that whole string along, you know, one dog, two dog, dog three. Dog four.
24:08 S3
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of repetition. But you know, the dogs are so different that it just keeps it really interesting. And some dogs learn a bit quicker, some a little bit slower. So you've got to adapt your training style a little bit to, to sort of suit the dog. So yeah.
24:23 S1
Do you have off the top of your head the number of steps that you might do in a day, roughly?
24:28 S3
Yes. So I was averaging sort of in the middle of a string when you've got about 6 or 7 dogs, normally about 18 to 20km a day, which I think is like, I don't know how many steps that is, but it's in the 20,000, somewhere in there.
24:45 S1
That is immense. I mean, you must go through a lot of shoes.
24:48 S3
Yeah, I've got my most trainers and instructors have like sets of shoes in their van or near their desk. I'm currently sat near three pairs of shoes, just depending on, you know, where we are and things like that. So it's good to rotate through shoes.
25:04 S1
So what is most rewarding or enjoyable about the role?
25:09 S3
I mean, the most enjoyable thing is the dogs graduating and going to meet their clients and having successful working relationships with their clients, and obviously the clients getting the independence that they need from these dogs, that that has to be the most rewarding thing for me.
25:23 S1
And I guess kind of on the flip side, what is the most challenging?
25:27 S3
I think the most challenging thing is making the difficult decision to reclassify a dog. We've always got to keep in mind the client's needs at the end of the day. And sometimes, you know, the dogs with training can be really good at other things, but other things might be quite difficult for a client to manage with... low vision or so. We've just got to keep that in mind. So I think your career changing dogs can be can be quite challenging. And it's hard to let the carers know, especially when you know that they've put so much work into these dogs. It can be really disappointing news to hear. I don't like giving that news.
26:02 S1
Yeah. Of course. Yeah.
26:04 S3
It's. That's probably the hardest part of the job.
26:08 S1
And just to finish off, is there anything else that you would like to share about your life as a trainer or trainee trainer?
26:15 S3
It's one of the fittest I've ever been. It's a really busy, really fun lifestyle. So if you've ever considered this is a job, I'd highly recommend it. It's super busy. Super active. I work with some amazing people and some amazing animals, so it's. Every day is just really enjoyable.
26:36 S1
And... for anyone who's considering joining the waitlist for a seeing eye dog, have you got some nice dogs coming up? You know, if people should, you know, look into dog mobility?
26:45 S3
Absolutely. We've got lots of dogs coming up. I've got a new string starting on Monday with 20 potential candidates, so a pretty big intake. Wow. Yeah. Get your names down.
26:58 S1
Well, thank you so much for joining me on the show and taking time out of your dog training to to chat.
27:03 S3
No worries. Always a pleasure, Harriet. Thank you.
27:12 S1
You've been listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show for Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interviews with Phoebe and Jack.
If you've been considering Dog guide mobility, now's a perfect time to chat with us or join the waitlist. Please contact the friendly team at Seeing Eye Dogs by calling 1800 037 773 or emailing info at Vision Australia dot org. We are open for applications now for young people who are blind or have low vision to take part in our 2025 Youth Program. People from 12 to 18 who are interested in finding out about dogged mobility and enhance their skills, can work with their OM and Seeing Eye Dogs staff to work on their O&M skills and find out what life with a seeing eye dog is like. Applications for the 2025 Youth program are open now, so head to our website to find out more at SED dot Vision Australia dot org, forward slash youth hyphen program. You can email Brooke Anderson at Brooke Anderson at Vision australia.org, or call Seeing Eye Dogs on 1800 037 773.
If you'd like more information about Seeing Eye Dogs for the work we do or how you can help, please head to our website at SED dot Vision Australia dot org - or you can head to our social media at Seeing Eye Dogs on Facebook or Instagram. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show. Don't forget to tune in same time next week for another episode. Have a great week!
