00:11S1
On Vision Australia Radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show with me, your host, Harriet Moffatt. Today I have an exciting interview coming up with Vaughan Roles. Vaughan is a lawyer, dad, keen adventurer, and a senior handler. Vaughan is going totell a story and talk about his life and partnership with Seeing Eye Dog Scooter. And tell us about the trek for Vision New Zealand that he'll be taking part in in March to raise funds for Vision Australia. We're going to be talking about some of the special preparation this trip has done to get prepared for this trek, and we hope that you'll get behind them and support Vision Australia's tele link and radio program by donating towards their track efforts, by donating on their track page, which we'll share on the news and social media for you to find, as well as give details about later. Now, without further ado, here is my interview with Vaughan. Hi everyone. Thank you for joining me on the show today.
01:17S2
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
01:19S1
Could you start off, please, by introducing yourself? Tell us a little bit about yourself. And, your Seeing Eye Dog.
01:25S2
I'm 48 years old, Iprofessionally employed, I work as a lawyer with Legal Aid, here in New South Wales, and I've got a four year old seeing eye dog. Scooter, he's my fourth dog. I've had a couple of guide dogs and a couple of seeing eye dogs. And I think, having said that, we're really lucky in this, in Australia that we've got a couple of different schools, but all who provide a pretty positive experience. That goes well for the guide dog movement generally. But I'd have to say out of, um, in recent times, Seeing Eye Dogs Australia has been very innovative in the way they've been working with dogs, and I'll cover off on some of that later for you as well.
02:05S1
And how long have you been a handler for overall?
02:09S2
Oh, probably too long. I've had, I got my first dog when I was about 26 or 28, so nearly 20 years now. I've had four of them. First dog works until he was about nine. I got another dog, which worked for about three years because I got him as an older dog, as an urgent replacement. And then I've had two seeing eye dogs, Diva and Scooter, who've worked, Diva worked till she was about nine. And now Scooter.
02:37S1
Have you always been blind or had low vision?
02:40S2
Yeah, always been totally blind.
02:42S1
And so what was the kind of, I mean, I was going to say my next question was, how has your life changed since being partnered with scooter? And I guess to some degree that's, you know, like, since having a seeing eye dog, I mean, you know.
02:56S2
Sometimes it's a two part question. When I first got matched with the dog, I was working in private practice in my own law firm, and I was doing multiple quarts a day, and I was getting between the courts with a came. And I didn't realise that. I thought most people that worked hard had headaches every day, and I couldn't. I just didn't know it was anything different to normal. And I kept getting, you know, taking headache tablets 3 or 4 times a week and having really bad headaches. And I just thought that was part of working a busy job, having a busy life.
03:26S1
The stress of being a lawyer.
03:27S2
Yeah, exactly. And the instructor said to me, I think the dog would be really helpful to you. And, I had this misconceived perception that people who had a guide dog. You know, I had the dog as much for companionship as for mobility. And I said, well, you know, I've got plenty of friends I don't really want, you know, another job. If it adds to my life, I'm happy to try it, but otherwise you can have it back. You know, I love animals, and I've always loved animals, but I was I was like, it's got a there's got to be a value add here. And then my first dog, we trained to find the courtrooms by number. And of course, the dog doesn't speak English, but it associates the courtroom to the smell, and the sense of that around it. And I could if I was in a complicated building with multiple courts, I could tell him, go to court five. Now, go to court seven. And if I got if I said seven, but really meant eight and he headed for seven. And then I realised I'd made my error and said, no, sorry, I mean eight. He would spin around and head.
04:29S1
Wow.
04:30S2
So he was a brilliant court dog. I think the most number of courts I did in a day was nine courts across metropolitan Sydney, with a dog, and that was with him. But regularly we didn't do that many. We used to 3 or 4. But he did 9 in 1 day across trains, taxis and Sydney. So he was a good operator. But, and in the legal fraternity, a lot of people have said to me his name was Vincent. A lot of people said to me, oh, you know, when I've got successive dogs, you know, they're not a they're not a patch on Vincent. And then, someone said to me that about speed, and I said, well, I'm not sure if I'd agree with you there. I think in time he will be better than Vincent. And that lawyer was with me at a function, and we were walking home at night and he said, oh, he said, I've now seen a bit more of his work. He said, I think, I think he is better. I think he's the best dog you've ever had. And I think that's probably true.
And if you get that when an animal's for, yeah, dogs are a bit like a good bottle of red, they only get better with age 6 or 7, in my experience, is when you really usually start getting the best out of a dog. But I think Scooter's picked it. I think you'll get slightly better. But I think he's really hit his straps already. I don't think there's much more maturity to be done, and I think a lot of that. You know, I don't want to embarrass anyone, but he's trying to. Caitlin just did a marvelous job with him. I couldn't have asked. And I've had some good trainers over the years, but in terms of preparing the dog for matching, I couldn't have asked for a better, uh, preparation process. And there's not a day goes by where I don't think how lucky I am that Caitlin put in the dedication and the work she put in on this dog. He's he's very OCD in the way he does his work. Even, for example, when I had Covid fairly badly last year, I'd line up to cross at various crossings and I might be facing ten degrees off the center of the crossing, and he would refuse to go until that was corrected. And I moved to the centre of the perimeter because that's where he'd been taught to cross.
06:42S1
It's very smart. He's not letting you kind of get away with them. Slack or subpar handling.
06:48S2
Oh, and also, he won't let me walk. If he perceives that there's danger there. And if we try to get through a small gap, if it's a very small gap and there's only a couple of centimeters to the side, some dogs will go through and that you brush, he he will not do that unless I let go of the harness and move him very slowly through the gap until and uh, stares at his other one until he is assured that I've felt the top step with my foot. He will not step off under any circumstances. So the the work that she's put in to his training, as someone who's had four dogs, I can recognize that she's put an enormous amount of work into his training, and he's just a joy, uh, to work with as a, as a worker because he's so precise and correct. Um, and it makes a massive difference to what you can do with him and what you're happy to try and accomplish with him.
07:44S1
So my next question was kind of what are some of your favorite things about scooter? I'm assuming that that kind of level of accuracy in his work is probably one of the biggest ones.
07:52S2
Yeah, the precision of his work, he he's he's a fun dog. When he lets his hair down, you know, he'll have a bit of a ball and that. But he's fairly serious most of the time. But he's his job and he's being. And life is about making sure that I'm kept safe and making sure that my productivity is increased. And so if that's your job, you do have to be serious.
08:15S1
Yeah. Not not only being a senior, but being a seeing eye dog with a lawyer. It's serious business in the courtroom.
08:20S2
Oh, no, no, no, we the courtrooms are. But we have that fun outside the courtroom, too. So he's just. If what he wants is to be right next to me, and if he's got that, he's complete.
08:31S1
What is a typical day in the life of you and scooter?
08:35S2
Usually I get up at between 5 and 6, spend an hour or two reading, and then we head off to work. We usually walk or get the bus to work one or the other, and then he moves in and out and around the courts during the day. And then. That kind of an evening. Our typical day is a bit. Really lucky for a dog. Really.
08:55S1
But I mean, all of that kind of public transport and then kind of going in and around the courtroom. I mean, kind of slow, low key for you, I guess, because you're kind of used to it. But it's quite I mean, there's quite a lot of I'm assuming there's quite a few kind of like people in obstacles and things to navigate in a courtroom or in within the kind of places that you're going to.
09:13S2
I suppose there is. I mean, in some ways you take it for granted, but if it's a really busy day, I can certainly tell that he's when I feel tired, he's usually tired, put it that way.
09:23S1
Yeah. So you feel you finish up your days and you're both kind of happy to like, put your feet up and do a bit less. Oh, well.
09:29S2
I do twice a week, when I can and I usually I've got, you know, I'm either running around with my daughter after hours or in the weeks when she's with her mum, I usually catch up with friends at least a couple of times a week. So he's often moving on into the evening as well. So and he's, he's happy with that. He just goes with it.
09:50S1
There's nothing really extra exciting coming up that I think you'd like to tell you about. So could you please tell me what exciting adventure is coming up for you to very soon?
10:00S2
Well, I was looking for something to do, which was community focused and which would be a little bit different to what I've done in the past. And I noticed an ad on Facebook, Vision Australia, doing a track to raise funds for Vision Australia Radio and for tele link programs. They're the two areas that are being targeted by the fundraising campaign. And I clicked on it, because it said it was suitable for people with low vision. I thought, oh, that's interesting because I like the outdoors and I like walking and things like that. And then I read further and said the hike is suitable for a guide dog. And it was a hike of the Queen Charlotte track in New Zealand. I'd never been to the Queen Charlotte track and I'd spoke to my partner and I said, she's live in New Zealand. I said, have you ever heard of the Queen Charlotte? Actually, it's a big walk through New Zealand, so I thought, oh, that'd be pretty cool.
So I rang and double checked because I thought, oh, I wonder where this suitable for guide dogs suffer some from? Let's make sure it actually is suitable before I lock in and agree to go without a guide and just rely on the dog. And they said, oh, it's definitely suitable for guide dogs. So I thought, well, you have the dog. You can't, you know, say that the dogs are there to increase independence and be with you if you're not truly going to give it a try. And I thought it's a wonderful opportunity for scooter, um, to really see what he can do and to really test him because like all of us, when you move outside of your comfort zone, you actually grow a bit as a person. And I think the dogs are no different. So I thought, well, let's give it a try. And at that stage when I signed up, we hadn't really hiked as a as a pair. We'd done a few little walks, but normally when we take scooter into the bush, um, my partner guides and I lead him off lead and he has a lovely run through the bush. So we hadn't really done a lot of him on harness.
11:45S1
Kind of working in that way.
11:47S2
Yeah, he handled it with great aplomb. And there's a kayaking element to it as well. And last year I'd been working with a company called Easy Dog. Because Skeeter hates the water or hates is probably too strong, but dislikes the water. And when we'd taken him into the local lake where I live, he'd scratched us all down the front trying to get out. And so I was like, this won't do. So I bought him a life jacket and we went through a couple of different life jackets. So we found one that he was comfortable with. And so once he's got his buoyancy is assured, he's then happy to be in the water. So I thought to myself, what if he could make some changes and you could have a dog who could swim independently, attack you down to swim independently? Because one of the issues with that site is finding his harness, finding your towel, finding the lead when you come out of the water. So I thought, what if we could come up with a way of modifying the life jacket so that it becomes a guide dog harness?
So I organised a meeting with the product manager, and we've come up with a design that should achieve that objective. And it's been designed so that you can put branding down the side. So it'll have seen our dog please don't touch and it'll have a dry bag on it so you can put a few things in it. So when I swim independently, I have my phone in a waterproof case so that if I need it, I can easily get it and ring someone or use a GPS. But my AirPods and my keys need to go somewhere. So we've got a waterproof dry bag on the back of the harness, which will hold those things and keep them dry. So everything I need when I'm down at the water is either on me or on scoot. So the idea will be that when I step out of the water, instead of having to change his harness over, I'll just literally pick up the handle and walk off home.
13:47S1
Yeah. Wow. I mean, and that's a quite like, innovative product, isn't it? Because that's not something that is it exists on the market already.
13:54S2
There's nothing on the market to meet that need. And the idea that as a blind person, if you go to a public pool to swim. You never know who's in your line or who's around, and you've got to find you. Like if you get out of the water, you've got to find your dog, find your stuff. It's actually a fairly challenging exercise to do. So the idea that if this prototype is successful, which there's no reason to doubt, it won't be because the guy who's helped design and has put a lot of thought into it. So the handle, for example, the harness handle is designed to float, so there's no drag when the dog is swimming. The handle just floats on top of the water on his back. So the idea will be that blind people will be able to independently swim, get out of a lake or river, and have their dog. But one of the things scooter does brilliantly is if I'm swimming, uh, intuitively, he comes out and checks on me, uh, whilst I'm swimming, and I can be 30 or 40m off the bank, and he just waits on the bank until I'm ready. And then if I call him, he'll swim to me, collect me from where I am, and then take me back to the swimming hole.
15:04S1
It's like a whole second kind of occupation as, like, life guard dog.
15:10S2
Well, it's absolutely critical, because if you're swimming in, like, it's easy to lose track of where you've entered the lake. And there's a bit of work required to fine tune that when the trainers have been there. He's always swim back to the trainers. When I've gone without the trainers, he goes to the nearest point of shore, but that he's got the overall concept that's just going to take a little bit of modification, so he'll get that and sort that out.
15:38S1
So obviously the equipment is one of the considerations in type in kind of preparing for the track. But how else have you prepared for. Yeah, the track or the or any additional training that you've done for these kind of unique challenges that are quite different to navigating, you know, New South Wales.
15:55S2
It's time in the harness for these dogs as much as anything else. I've walked up to 15km in a day. But usually I do it in a burst continuously without a break. I stop at about the seven kilometre mark, usually to give one lot of water. That's because it's flat ground. If it was a hilly or more rocky walk, I would stop every five k's and provide him with water. But it's the concentration that he has to get used to of actually guiding for hours on end without stopping. That's been the challenge for him. A dog has the physical fitness to cover the distance without issue. It's the mental that's the trick for him.
16:39S1
And it's not quite necessarily the same actual kind of guide work challenges as well that he might face in, I guess, in a CBD or urban environment. So I think before we were recording and we, we spoke a little bit about how a dog might navigate something like, for example, um, stepping stones or water. Could you explain a little bit about some of the interesting ways that he might interpret different and new features in the environment?
17:06S2
Every time we hike I learned something new about how he interprets environments. So we did a hike last week where we walked down and across the top of a waterfall where the water was shallow, but they had stepping stones to cross the waterfall. Rather than go on the stepping stones, he chose to go through the water because it was a lot more stable to go through the water in his eyes, because it was flatter, than to get his owner to stand up on these narrow blocks and stay on top of the blocks. So, and he was a bit put out when I tried to insist on staying on top of the block. So one of the lessons I learned from that was in terms of his confidence and his assuredness. Sometimes there's a benefit in actually going with it, even though it's not the route that humans would choose, but it's the dogs chosen. And that leads to some some interesting positions, because I end up with feet wet a lot earlier than most people on the walk.
18:05S1
But but I suppose in terms of, you know, the way that he's interpreted that, I mean, he's got a good point, that actually, if you're not able to see the distance between the stepping stones, it would be much easier to miss it just depending on stride length itself.
18:18S2
And he doesn't take into account. There's another person saying to me, step over. Yeah, you're on it now. He's looking at it as a dog, going, I've got to manage this.
18:28S1
This is my job.
18:29S2
For me. Yeah. And which is, and you learn about him. But by doing these things, you learn about what what's going through. And to that end, GoPro, a friend of mine said to me, it would be really good if you would think about having a GoPro on student, because that's a different perspective. And it's through a contacts, a website called Tech Guide Teacher Guide. Com.au put me on to GoPro and GoPro have donated a camera and some accessories. So we tried one mount last week and the camera moved around a little bit too much, but I'm pretty confident we've got the right mount now, so we're going to try it this weekend. I'm expecting to get some really interesting footage, because you'll find I'm hoping anyway that you'll see him, what he's looking at. And then say you'll have a preview of the scene, and then you'll be able to watch how he chooses to tackle that and understand the reasoning behind it, because you've seen what he was approaching, if that makes sense.
19:34S1
Yeah, which is so interesting. I mean, because, like, I'd never have considered that whole. Yeah, take taking the water or um, or how they navigate this and it's not necessarily like the standard, you know. Yeah. Taking the straight line from curb to curb.
19:51S2
No. And when we walk down and if we go down rock steps and the steps are quite wide apart, he will keep moving continuously down the steps if they're narrow steps, like I said before, because his trainer was so precise, if they're narrow steps, he does one step at a time and pauses until he knows my foot's on the next step, ready to go down. If they're wide, he'll keep going and let me feel the gate. But it shows really advanced communication by him to be able to go, well, hang on, I can't get that message across. Yeah. Um, because these steps are too narrow. So I'm going to go down one step and have two pores on one step, two on another, and I'm going to stop until my feet are on the next step down. So there's a real there's a real precision. And one of the things we've heard is that some parts of the track and narrow, uh, and some parts have significant drops off the side. But I have no concern whatsoever about his capacity to deal with that stuff.
20:46S1
Which is quite remarkable. It's a quite remarkable amount of trust to have in in a dog. That's probably. Yeah. I mean, his formal training was not conducted in an environment like that.
20:57S2
No, that's one of the walkers that was walking with me last weekend. I said, you know, in some ways I prefer to have scooter as the guide over one of you guys. Not in a in a nasty sense, but this is what he specializes in. Yeah, this is what he knows. The help you guys give me is wonderful, but this is his calling in life. This is what he does. So I know that he's going to get it right, you know?
21:23S1
So other than, I suppose kind of what you're actually, I mean, you kind of mostly cover this, but you know what? Why did you decide to sign up for the trek? And why should people get behind behind you?
21:36S2
Well, you need to get behind me because we need to raise some money. That's the bottom line. But I'm going to try and provide you with something that gives you an incentive to do it. So there's an Instagram page called Vaughn Virginia Adventures. You can follow that on Instagram. There's a YouTube video, uh, YouTube channel called Scooter Underscore Cam. If you search for at Google, spelt the usual way underscore cam or you search for scooter space cam and choose channels, the channel will come up and there's a picture of scooter on the channel. And what we're putting on there is various videos of his training and I'll be posting track videos. Um, showing what he gets up to. Well, I'll try and post him in New Zealand if the mobile networks permit. Otherwise they'll be posted when I get back.
But really, what it's about effectively what I'm saying to you is tele link services are incredibly important for people who lose their sight. If you put yourself in the position of someone who's lost their sight. And I can't do it because I was born without sight. But could you imagine losing your sight in your 20s and 30s? 40s? 50s. And bear in mind we're all only one accident away from that happening, and then trying to fathom how your life is going to operate. And and what you can manage, and the idea that you can connect with other blind people who can who can talk you through that, I actually think is really important. It it's something I'll never understand the benefit of because it didn't happen to me. But I think it's really important for people and the other services Vision Australia radio. So bottom line is we need your money, we want your money. And scooter and I are the team you should sponsor because we're giving you something back. We're giving you a free little dog clips in return for your donation.
23:33S1
You get some very cool content, and I get to understand just some of the, um, yeah, some of the things that you're supporting as well.
23:41S2
And I'd like to say that people are interested in me, but I know it's not true. People are interested in scooter and so scooters content will be there for everyone to see.
23:49S1
Well, scooter is a very, very handsome, um, you know, young black Labrador, you know, I mean, that's what the people want, isn't it? Really? I mean, people, yeah.
23:59S2
No one's interested in the middle aged, balding male who hangs on the scooters handle. They're interested in scooter. That's okay. I can live with that as long as I don't like.
24:08S1
So how can the show's listeners support your efforts in the track?
24:12S2
You can go to Vaughn Dot Adventures on Instagram and you'll find my YouTube link there. Sorry, my, um, donation link there. You can go to my YouTube channel at Scooter Underscore Cam, and there's a link in each of the video descriptions there. Or you can contact Vision Australia and make a donation through these in Australia. All your donations are tax deductible and every donation will be greatly appreciated.
24:40S1
So is there anything else that that you wish that the general public knew about synagogues or any messages that you'd like to share with donors, volunteers, or supporters of seeing eye docs?
24:50S2
One of the things that's really important to me is narrowing the gap between the unemployment statistics of people who are blind and have low vision, and the unemployment statistics for the rest of Australia. And I'd like to think that by scooter and I doing normal things a little bit differently, which is really what we're doing. We actually it's a it's a positive message that goes out to the public. And it's something that's quite positive for, for people to see and hopefully that that comes through in, in this interview and also in the in the YouTube videos we produced, they are going to be a bit rough. But that's the whole nature of YouTube and it's authentic. It's it's real and it's earthy.
25:43S1
Yeah. And I even just, I guess not just the trick, but thinking about the fact that, you know, I mean, we've had handles on the show with a number of different occupations, but I'm sure that there would be lots of people that wouldn't necessarily consider all of the, um, different occupations that people who are blind or have low vision could have, including being a lawyer working in courtrooms. I mean, you'd have to adapt to, you know, some of the interesting ways of, I guess, reading some of those documents. But it's doable, I think.
26:10S2
Well, it's funny. When I first started in law, you, you you didn't have portable scanning technology. You didn't have, um. Easy access to Braille in boxes and things like that to convert material. But everything has become so mainstream, and even some of your files now come already electronically as electronic files. So the divide caused by an absence of sight is being markedly reduced, if not for all intents and purposes, eliminated. And I think that goes for many of many professions. You know, the technology is it's it's a very exciting time to be blind right now because the opportunities are only going to grow for us.
26:58S1
And one of those ways that people can actually help support all of that type of thing is by donating to organisations like Vision Australia, right?
27:05S2
Absolutely. And so when you finish this, if you feel inspired, check a YouTube channel out, check an Instagram video out. But most importantly, make sure you click on the link and pop a donation.
27:17S1
Well, best of luck for the trek, and I'm hoping that the listeners really get behind you guys because yeah, lots and lots of work has gone into this preparation. And I'm excited to to check out and hear about how you've gone afterwards.
27:30S2
I thank you. Really appreciate your time.
27:32S1
Thanks so much, Vaughan. Have a great one. You've been listening to the Seeing Attack show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Vaughan. If you'd like to support Vaughan and Scooter, you can find their story shortly on the Idexx news page of the website, which will have the links to their donation page as well as YouTube and Instagram. And that will also be on our social media soon. As well as you can head directly to their fundraising page, which is fundraising Virgin Australia. Org forward slash fundraisers, forward slash Vaughan roles or one word Vaughan spelled vague h a n r o l e s. Or you can visit them at their YouTube, which is youtube.com forward slash at Scooter Underscore cam or their Instagram, which is instagram.com. Forward slash Vaughan underscore adventures. If you'd like to find out more about seeing eye dogs, the work we do, or how you can help, head to our website at SED-dot-Vision Australia-dot-org. Thank you for listening and don't forget to tune in Same planet next week for another episode of The Seeing Eye Dogs Show.
