Solving problem behaviours with Kylie

00:10 S1

On Vision Australia radio, you're listening to the Seeing Eye Dogs Show - with me, your host, Harriet Moffat. Today I'll be chatting with Seeing Eye Dogs training program manager and seeing eye dog instructor Kylie Gersh about solving problem behaviours. We're going to talk about how to work with your instructor, seeing eye dog staff contact or trusted trainer on how to work through undesirable behaviours with your dog. Whether you're a client, carer or pet dog owner, Kylie is going to give us some fabulous information and great tips about how to resolve issues so that we can get the best life with our dogs. We're talking about some of the problem behaviors like dog distraction, counter surfing and stopping on walks and the info we need to fix them, plus how we can both best work with a trainer. If you're a seeing eye dog Autohandler. Don't forget you can reach out to our instructor team when any issues arise to get training support. Don't wait to get the help to get back on track. Now here's my interview with Kylie Gersh talking solving problem behaviors. Hi Kylie, thanks for joining me on the show today.

01:28 S2

Hi, how are you? How are you? Good.

01:30 S1

How are you?

01:31 S2

Good. Could you please.

01:33 S1

Start off by introducing yourself?

01:35 S2

Uh, my name is Kylie Gersh, and I'm the training manager here at Seeing Eye Dogs.

01:40 S1

So we're going to start and talk about some problem behaviors or problem and problem solving behaviors. So I guess, um, to start off what, you know, might someone describe as a, you know, kind of problem behavior?

01:53 S2

I guess it's just behaviors. Um, and when we're talking about dogs in particular, it's behaviors that may impact us or that is potentially annoying or something that we wanted the dog usually to stop doing. Um, so it's important to understand, I guess from a dog's perspective, that and from any human or any animal that, um, they're just behaving in a way to control their outcomes. So they what is if you ask what behavior is for, it's just that, um, it allows any, um, living species to gain something that's pleasurable. So something that we want, and we usually repeat those behaviors if it's something nice and we want to keep getting that nice thing, or we generally try to avoid or escape things that doesn't work for us or doesn't work well. So when we think about problem behaviors, um, it's important also to think about it from the the other animals perspective. So in this case, the dogs that they're just doing things that they want to do to get, um, either because something's pleasurable or that they're trying to escape something that they don't want to do.

03:05 S1

So, I mean, why do dogs, you know, behave so, so differently, if that makes sense. Like, I mean, are dogs stubborn or are they spiteful sometimes when they're, you know, behaving in those ways?

03:18 S2

Yeah. It's good. Um. It is, um, interesting. Harriet, I think when you talk about, um, stubborn or spiteful, I guess they're human emotions often that we or labels that we put to things. Um, and generally dogs can feel frustration or happy or, or, um, you know, or feeling concerned about things, but generally they don't have those, the complex emotions like such as spiteful or stubborn. So I think really it's important if we can try to avoid using those labels and just kind of pay attention to what the dog's actually doing. So what are you observing? What are you hearing? So is it if, um, you feel like rather than saying the dog's crazy around other dogs or uncontrollable or, um, something like that. You could kind of think about what is the dog doing? Is the dog pulling you towards the other dog? Is it any time you walk past a dog barking behind the fence, your dog or puppy is barking at the other dog? Um, because it wants to say hello.

04:26 S1

I guess that's one of the things where it's kind of important to not anthropomorphize and treat them like they're a human that thinks in the same way. Like when people say, oh, my dog's guilty about something.

04:38 S2

Yes. And usually when that happens in terms of guilty, it's just that the dog reads your body language. Um, and they can probably predict the outcome. So they might read your that you're tense, or you might use your voice in a different tone of voice. Um, and that they're predicting that something unpleasant is going to happen. Um, so they might appear to look guilty, but generally it's just that they're reading. Reading what you're giving out. Yeah.

05:07 S1

So when we're talking about, I guess, kind of those, you know, problem behaviors, maybe it's not something that the dogs had their whole life and you think, where has this come from? So what, you know, what might cause things to either pop up suddenly or what other factors might come into play in these types of things developing? Yeah.

05:24 S2

Look, it's really sometimes it can be really subtle in these behaviors just start to happen out of nowhere. But it's often um, they will sometimes start small. So maybe it's just you think, oh, it's a once off. The dog was fearful of going upstairs. It was just one set of stairs. And then, um, you notice that more often than not, the dog might be hesitant or wanting to move away from going up open stairs, for example. Or maybe that, um, it barked and lunged towards a dog behind a fence one time, and then all of a sudden you notice that, oh, it's happening once a week, and then then you start to notice maybe it's happening more, more times. So I think that sometimes is the key. Harriet is actually, um, recognizing when when certain behaviors are starting to increase and particularly behaviors that we like, we want to keep, um, telling the dog or puppy that they're doing well and reinforcing either with a pad or food. Um, but then also paying attention if there's these other behaviors that are coming up that we don't want recognizing them early, that these things are starting to happen once offs or once offs. But if they're starting to happen more often, then maybe you start to see the dog become a habit or it starts to become concerning. So I would encourage to think back and maybe keep some records or just quickly write write down when those behaviors are happening and what's what is happening at that time. So what is the dog actually doing? Is it what's happening before? Is it just when a dog barks at your dog or puppy that the dog then lunges? And at all other times they walk quite nicely past other dogs? So you really kind of getting gathering information is what I would say is really helpful to be able to problem solve. So if you gather information around when it starts happening, how often is it happening? Um, and what kind of things in the environment kind of sets the behavior off, I guess. Um, I gave you an example of dog distraction, but if there's something like barking and the barking at home happens just when visitors arrive at the door, or just when they knock at the door. Um, and if that's something new for the puppy or dog is just kind of being aware about what's happening, is it to a particular person? Is it to the postie, which is a that's a common one for lots of dogs. Um. Or is it, um, to anybody? Does it start to become something where we call generalize where that behavior, the problem behavior starts to become to any person coming to the door or any dog. Um, and ideally we want to we want to address that behavior before it starts becoming impacting you as their handler. Um, or impacting the dog. So if the dog is then showing concern about something, we want to kind of try to, um, work through it as quickly as we can.

08:35 S1

I guess, as well, um, something pops up suddenly might be a vet problem or a medical.

08:40 S2

Yeah. Great. Yeah. Great thought actually. Yes, exactly. So, um, I would always if there's a behavior that's come out of the out of left field and the puppies always or dogs always been, um, doing really well, and then all of a sudden they start to become concerned or that they're not wanting to walk out or, um, just trying to think of examples, um, or even barking at new things or, um, anything that seems kind of out of, out of, um, normal. I would always encourage, um, a vet check just to rule out any medical problems or health reasons for the behavior, because sometimes it can be, um, like urinating in the house or urinating out on the street or toileting, for example. Um, could be indicate actually that there's a health problem. So you always want to rule out that um, first before kind of looking into is it a behavior, something behavioral that we can influence with behavior?

09:41 S1

Yeah, I was thinking about the stairs too. In particular, as dogs would get older, you might find that it you know, the there's a really underlying cause which is like arthritis or similar.

09:51 S2

Yes, exactly. Or not wanting to get in and out of a car is another sign potentially that yeah, that's maybe something's hurting for them. They're in pain.

09:59 S3

Yeah.

10:01 S1

So when we're talking about behaviors that are, um, yes. Not caused by medical things. But back on the, on the things that are training domain, um, you know, why is it important to I guess think about the motivation when you're addressing a behavior.

10:18 S2

I guess understanding why the dog is doing what it's doing helps us to really, um, put our put our minds into where where the dog is thinking about, um, and it also then helps us to solve it. So I'll go back to like you. And you're saying, um, dogs stubborn. That actually doesn't help us solve the problem. It just says the dog is stubborn and we can't do anything about it. But once we start to say, um, unpack that a little bit and say, okay, well, when the dog, when I walk out from home, the dog is stopping and not wanting to keeping on, keeping on walking. Um, so once we can actually identify or describe what the dog is doing. It means that we've got more power to change it. So we're like, okay, if the dog is doing this, is there something that we can do to to support the dog? Can we teach them another behavior at the time? Um, can we use positive reinforcement to encourage them? Sometimes for working dogs, for example, it might just be going a different route that you have been for maybe a couple of walks and then trying back on the walk that you're going on. Um, so it it kind of empowers us to think about it from a different point of view. Um, like the dog's or person's point of view, actually, there's usually a reason why they're doing that. Sometimes it's hard to know what the reason is, but it gives us, I guess, empowerment that we can change it. Um, and we've got the power to, to support or change behaviour rather than kind of going, oh, it is what it is and we can't change it.

11:58 S1

You think about like in particular like a dog. That's like walking the various numbers of things that a dog could smell or hear that we wouldn't know about. Like, you sometimes wonder, what are they picking up in this environment that they don't like? There could be something that we'd have no idea about, I'm guessing. Yes.

12:17 S2

And usually a stopping behavior is around avoiding something. Um, or it could be that something is reinforcing. So if a dog stops and can sniff and they fight, they love a sniff. Then more likely you'll notice that the dog might stop at a certain bush because they actually get to sniff, and they really like that. But I've found in my experience that stopping behavior out on the street can often be more of an avoidance type behavior. Sometimes it's hard to pick to pinpoint why they're what they're avoiding. Um, but if you start to notice, like I said, um, when it started happening, where it's happening, that and you speak to your I'd encourage you as soon as it starts to happening and it's starting to impact you. Um, that I would encourage carers, volunteers or, um, handlers to reach out to their support person, contact person, instructor, um, just to chat through. Hey, I've gathered this information. This is happening. What kind of strategies? Um, I was thinking, you know, feel free to say. I was thinking I was going to try this. What do you reckon? Or do you have strategies? I don't, I've tried this and this and. And they're not working. So, um, you could go ahead and try a few things. And if it's not working quickly, try to seek support, um, and have a chat. But as I said, it's easier for us as an instructor. I can say as, as an instructor, it's easier for me if I understand when the behaviour is happening. When does it not? When is it? When is the behaviour not happening? When did it start? Um, and then also it's really helpful to know exactly what the, what the dog is doing, but then also what you're doing as a handler. What happens afterwards? Does the dog? Is the dog able to sniff or after the dog lunges and barks at a dog, then it can pull and say hello to a dog. And then I try to, you know, maybe use the lead to keep it going. Um, but this isn't working. Or I've tried, um, X, Y, and Z. None of these things and none of these things are working.

14:25 S1

So I guess even, like. Yeah, like like you said, it depends on what the dog is motivated by. So if if they lunge bark then get reinforced for it then it's going to pop up more. It's kind of. Yes.

14:39 S2

Yeah. And look, sometimes, um, it's a good point, Harriet, because sometimes the reinforcement, like food comes that comes directly from us as the handler. But some being bearing in mind that a lot of the time it's either something that reinforce which is pleasurable, um, come can come from the environment. So it can come from just saying hello to another dog can be enough to keep that behavior going, or them to keep doing it or sniffing is, um, a prime example of one they most dogs love to sniff. It's just part of being a dog. Um, so they get lots of reinforcement. Um, they enjoy it, you know, so it doesn't come from us, but it comes from the environment. Or it could be things in the environment also that they might be fearful of, or it could be us that actually they might be concerned. Nothing that we've intentionally done, but maybe, um, we've had a stumble. I was thinking of a client. Maybe we've had a fall or a stumble in a certain area. Um, and then the dog's concerned that that will happen again, and maybe they don't want to go to that area, for example.

15:45 S1

It's quite complex, isn't it, really. You're you're looking at a lot of different things. And motivation can be external or like kind of something that we create. Um, because we also spoke a bit about one of the problem behaviors that might come up are things like counter surfing. Yeah. So like taking things from counters. Right. So if you don't do anything about it, it's very reinforcing.

16:06 S2

Yes, exactly. Yeah. They if they keep getting food what we call food distraction or like you said, counter surfing where they jump up onto the counter, they might only need to get it once out of 100 times, but they will still try. So it's worth it. It's worth it for that one time. So even though we said we can think, oh, actually they haven't got it for ages, but then the behaviour still is there. It's likely because that behaviour is they've got it once and they remember, they remember that one out of 100. So that can be why sometimes it is tricky to, to reduce um that type of behaviour, particularly around food and labradors. Um, you know, they, they probably remember one out of 500, let's be honest. They've got, they've gotten to um, and it is Entities, their natural dogs and natural scavengers. It's part of being a dog, like I said, about sniffing. So they're more inclined to scavenge, or which scavenging is just finding food in the environment. What you can do is actually give them healthy outlets or appropriate outlets to do some of those behaviors. So things like, um, for handlers, I encourage like a snuffle mat where they can actually find food or puzzle toys, um, where they can get food or, um, search for food, and that can help to, um, support them to do doggie behavior, but in an appropriate way that works for us and not out on the street when we're when they're trying to focus on developing their confidence as a puppy through the environment or as a handler guiding, guiding their person. Yeah.

17:50 S1

When I was growing up, I had this pet dog who was a golden retriever, and we once walked past the library, and for some reason the library was grasped. Um, and outside of the library there was a petting zoo. And so the one time we walked past, she was like, oh, great, there's lots of really interesting animals there. And I think I would say it would be a few hundred times after that. She kept wanting to go to the library just in case there were more animals there.

18:14 S2

Yes. Yeah.

18:16 S1

It's kind of interesting what motivates them. And then their memory of one specific thing that just could happen again.

18:22 S2

Exactly. So sometimes in those behaviors, I don't know, what did you do in that scenario, Harriet, to get her focus back?

18:28 S1

I think we just walked to past it on the other time on the other side of the street, kind of further away, and then just kind of kept her going, and she was fine. I think she kind of just got over it.

18:38 S2

But yeah. And that's perfect. I think changing your environment. So sometimes we do have to change what we're doing, um, and change things in the environment so that the behavior doesn't happen. Um, we could also then maybe you reinforced her because she was a little bit further away. You you kind of change the environment or change the walk section. So she was less close. Um, same thing you can do for dogs. And then and then you might have reinforced it. So you might have said good girl or um, give her give her a piece of food for doing the behavior we wanted her to, which was hopefully walk past and focused. Yes. Um, rather than wanting to go and say to go to the paddock petting zoo. So often when you're working through, um, behaviors that are what we call problem behaviors, but behaviors that we just don't want the dog to keep doing. Um, it's often about changing things in the environment and then either teaching or reinforcing something else, another behavior that you do want them doing. Um, so whether it is locating a curb or if they're, um, barking at people, sometimes that might be encouraging them to grab a toy, because most dogs, although I have come across a few, but most dogs, if they've got something really, um, Beak in their mouth like a teddy bear or something. They can't actually bark. At the same time. So you're teaching them a behavior that they actually can't do. At the same time. So you're teaching them to maybe fetch, um, a, a toy, and then you can reinforce them for that behavior, which is something probably you might prefer them to do than barking at people. Or classic example is jumping up on people. You teach them a sit which lots of dogs learn from. Most of the puppies learn that when they're 4 or 5 weeks old in the puppy center, so they know sit and sit means good things happen. So you can you use some of those behaviors that they they know and like doing because they have gotten good things. Um, so for yeah, you could ask them to sit if they're jumping up or people or doing something else. Um, yeah.

20:49 S1

So, you know, I mean, you kind of covered that a bit. But in summary, I guess, what's the role of positive reinforcement in, you know, in a changing some of these behaviors?

21:01 S2

Yeah, I think, um, it is about looking at what the dog knows and has been, um, reinforced from us from so some of those behaviors, like stopping at curbs or sitting, um, we can utilize that, um, to teach them something else that we want. Um, so I would encourage people to use positive reinforcement, whether that's food, a pat or, you know, verbal, um, input. I'd encourage them to keep that up for things that they want the dog to do, being really clear and communication. Um, but then we can also utilize that to teach them alternative behaviors. Um, that at this time when you're wanting to say hello and pull towards a dog, actually, I want you to sit and I'll reinforce you with food when you sit. That's a good thing. More that's better. And you get more good things than actually going to say hello to the dog. And then I pick up the harness handle or pick up the lead, and then we keep going. Um, so I think that's where it comes in, um, to be able to teach, to, to communicate the behaviors you want and then kind of teach alternative behaviors. Um, when the problem. Yeah, away from the problem behaviors or away from the behaviors that don't work for us. Yeah.

22:27 S1

So just to finish off, um, how do you get support from a single instructor if you're a handler?

22:33 S2

Yeah. So we're, um, always available, um, by phone. So if there are things that you notice that things come popping up or something's happened a little bit more often, touch base with the instructor that you regularly contact if you can't get hold of them. Um, yeah. Give, give um, any of the instructors or even the our main number call, and one of the instructors will be able to to get back to you. We also have a um inbox um or email inbox as well, which um, I can get Harriet to pop on after this. She probably has it.

23:10 S1

Uh, it's said clients at Vision australia.org, I believe.

23:13 S2

Thank you. Thank you for that. Um, so you can also float us an email. There's no wrong, you know, wrong way to to to request for support. And we're happy to have a chat over the phone. Um, if you want to, if you've got a support person who is videoed it or like I said before, it's helpful for us to understand if you've got some of that information already. Um, we can work troubleshoot some things with you. Otherwise, if you prefer us to pop out, we're really happy to pop out when? When we can. Um, and support you with that. But I would say the earlier the better. Um, if the behaviour has been going on for quite a quite a long time. Um, it's the it's harder, potentially, to reduce that behavior because the dogs had more chances of repetition of that. Um, yeah. So I would encourage always contact us and encourage earlier than later.

24:10 S3

Yeah.

24:11 S1

Don't don't wait until your next scheduled follow up just to give the give the team a ring.

24:15 S2

Yes, exactly. And, um, yeah, don't let it get to a point where it's really impacting you or making you frustrated or, um, you know, it's. Yeah. To the point where it's, um, really bad. Yeah.

24:28 S1

Well, thank you for coming on the show and talking problem behaviors with us.

24:32 S2

Thanks, Harriet.

24:38 S1

You've been listening to the Seeing Eye dog show on Vision Australia Radio. I hope you enjoyed my interview with training program manager Kylie. If you are a seeing eye dog handler and would like support with a training or behaviour problem, reach out to your trusted instructor or to the team by emailing said clients at Vision Australia. Org. If you're a volunteer carer with us, please reach out to your staff contact for assistance for more information about seeing eye dogs, the work we do or how you can help, please head to the website at said Vision Australia. Org. Would you love to become a volunteer carer and welcome a rewarding volunteer opportunity with a puppy in your home over Christmas and New Year? Now's your last chance to get on board ready for the festive season. Don't worry if you can apply at any time of the year to receive a puppy after January 2025, but if you are keen to get on board and make use of the holiday season to settle in a foster friend, now's your time to get involved. We're looking for puppy carers in selected regions of New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland that are listed on our website, but essentially lots of metro Melbourne, Ballarat, Bendigo, Geelong regions, New South Wales, Central Coast and Northern Sydney regions and Queensland, Sunshine Coast, Brisbane and parts of Gold Coast. Our last scheduled information session will be held online for Victoria, New South Wales and Queensland on Thursday, November 28th, 6 p.m. to 7 p.m. Australian Eastern Daylight Time via zoom. You can register at speedvision. Australian org forward slash volunteer forward slash information, hyphen sessions, or just head to that website and then head to the volunteer page. We're also looking for training dog relief carers to house adult dogs in our training programs for short term relief care periods from a few days or a few weeks to a few months. These dogs can be waiting for class time, taking a little bit of a break from training, and will not need to be dropped off to site every day. There is also an option to take the dogs throughout their formal training, where you will drop them off to site every day. But this one is a little bit of a different option. So if you can provide some loving care and a home for a training or trained dog, waiting for client training or not actively doing training every day and you are driving distance from Kensington Victoria, please become a training Dog relief carer. You can apply through the website and now some information about our track for vision. We've got a bit of a Black Friday sale, so if you would like to join our lovely client handler Lucia, who joined me on the show a few weeks ago with seeing eye dog Luna for the unforgettable track for vision 2025. We'd love to have you on board. You can embark on an incredible journey with Vision Australia's track for vision, as we explore the breathtaking Abel Tasman track in New Zealand from April 29th to May the 3rd, 2025. This five day adventure will support Vision Australia's quality living groups, empowering individuals who are blind or have low vision. Lucia says Vision Australia has provided me with access to technology support groups, domestic assistance aides, occupational therapists and of course, seeing eye dogs. It's helped me live my life to the fullest. You can register for the trek between November 15th and December 2nd, to save $150 on the cost of travel using the discount code Black Friday. Hyphen 150. Don't miss this opportunity to make a meaningful impact and experience one of New Zealand's most beautiful trails. Spaces are filling up fast, so cure your spot today at Vision Australia. Org forward slash trek for vision. Thank you for listening to the Seeing Eye Dog show. And don't forget to tune in. Same time next week for another episode of The Seeing Eye Dog Show.