The Puppy or the Stick?

00:04

S1 (Speaker 1)

Hello, this is Sam. Before we start today's show, there's a couple of things that I really think have to be said. The first thing is that I'd like to pay a big tribute to my former co-presenter on this show, Matthew Layton. Matthew has taught me a lot over the last couple of years, and he has contributed a lot to this show. So wherever you are, Matthew, out there in the ether, I hope you're going well and do keep in touch. 

The other thing I'd like to say is if you are getting tired of hearing the same voices over and over again, then add your voice. You can email us at studio one at Vision Australia. Org, that's studio one at Vision australia.org. I know you've heard it over and over again, but we would like to hear from you. If there's something you feel that we haven't covered that is really important to you, let us know. If you violently disagree with something. Also, let us know. We are not experts in the field. This just happens to be our life now on with the show.

S2

This is studio One on Vision Australia Radio.

S3

Hello, I'm Lizzie.

S1

And I'm Sam.

S3

Welcome to studio one, a weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio.

S1

On this week's show...

S3

Some of us choose a dog guide to help us get around, while others are happy to stick with the trusty white cane.

S1

And some of us again choose to travel incognito.

S3

So we ask why - and what suits you best, the puppy or the stick?

S1

As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this episode of Studio One, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and your insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.

S3

You can email us at Studio 1 at Vision australia -dot-org. That's studio one at Vision Australia-dot-org.

S1

So. Hello, Lizzie. You've been very busy with today's show.

S3

I have, I have been finding lots of interesting people to talk about this topic with the puppy or the state.

S1

So what's your opinion on this? I mean, obviously you have a guide dog, but I mean, what what do you think of the pros and cons of the the boring old canine as opposed to the exciting Labrador? 

S3

Well, personally I think that a cane can be more convenient in certain situations. I actually attended a meeting the other day where it would have been more prudent to have my cane with me, because there was lots of food present and also lots of small spaces to navigate. So I can definitely see the pros and cons of a cane versus a guide dog. I am a seeing my dog handler and have been for about eight and a half years now, and there's definitely situations where she's come in handy as well.

S1

Let's start out by, yeah, hearing what Bill Jolley has to say. He's the chair of the Vision Australia board.

S4

Well, I think in a nutshell, the dog guide is a much better guide. And the white cane. But you don't have to look after a white cane 24 over seven. So if the person is is prepared to go the extra distance, if they like dogs and are prepared to look after the dog, knowing that the the dog is a living, loving, emotional creature, then they will get the benefit of a superior guide when they're out and about and and superior assistance than a cane can provide. So it becomes a trade off for people in terms of their lifestyle. 

And as I say, their affinity with dogs, their preparedness and ability to look after the dog, the type and nature of travel that they do, and various various factors that influence people to make a decision one way or the other. So, paradoxically, I'm not a dog guide user. I'm a cane user, but I have a strong support and commitment or commitment to support people that want to use dog guides to be able to do so.

S1

I think we've also known quite a few people in the past who just basically couldn't do without their their dog guides as well. So it doesn't take much to learn how important those are to certain people.

S4

Absolutely. And that's right. And there's a bond there that builds up between the person and the dog, which is very important. And it's important for a person to be able to relate to the dog as a, as a working dog, kind of in the day and as a pet and a comrade out of working hours, out of harness is very important.

S1

So one of Bill's claims to fame, you might say, is he assisted in the merging of Seeing Eye Dogs Australia with Vision Australia.

05:06

S3

And that's amazing. I actually have a seeing eye dog. As I've said previously, her name's Lacey and I've been with her since 2015. And it is a case of are you willing to look after the dog? As he said, they are a living and loving companion, and I find for me, especially if there's situations that caused me a lot of anxiety, such as high traffic and dense crowds, just having her there to sort of be my anchor, to calm me down is really helpful. And I don't get that with a cane. I actually kind of feel more vulnerable with a cane in those sort of situations. But you, Sam, you don't use a cane or a dog, is that correct?

S1

Yes. We'll talk about that close to the end of the show.

S3

Righto.

S1

Who are we hearing from now?

S3

Alex, I believe.

S5

Yes. So eight weeks ago I was finally given the guide dog I was matched with. Jane. Tessie. She's just turned two. She's an insanely smart black Labrador.

S3

And what dog guides school did you go through.

S5

To get her? I went through a Guide Dogs scent.

S3

And so talk to me about some of the places that you take her for regular work.

S5

I think the is why don't I take her? Oh, yeah. She she goes to music, she goes to uni, she goes to all my re-enactment events. She goes to exercise, physiotherapist, archery. She would go for walks around the place. Just in general. It's more of a case of why don't I take her at this point.

S3

So I'll ask the question: is there anywhere that you don't take her?

S5

There is one at the moment. I'm a I'm a scout leader for the Joeys section, little 5 to 8 year olds. If it weren't for a couple of them that don't understand the meaning of personal space, I probably would take her. But the issue is, is I'm actually quite worried. They. Leave her alone, even when she's got a harness on. And they'd spend the whole night pestering her. And it would be a rather large setback. Yeah.

S3

And how does she go in an area like exercise? Physiology? Physiology? You're in a gym. It's a quiet, crowded environment. There's other people there. It's a noisy atmosphere, really.

S5

The gym actually isn't. It's specific to the exercise physiology department. So we don't actually use the general access public gym. So most of the time at the most, there may be six people in there.

S3

But she takes to that atmosphere quite well.

S5

Because she just flops.

S3

Because I know the gym. I can't take Lacy to gym because I move around from one place to another, especially when you're doing weights or you go and do a bit of cardio and she will follow me. She doesn't understand, or she doesn't want to stay in the one spot. And I know that you go swimming with her greatest has going... [indistinct]

S5

I set her up with my parents trolley. They use a two stack trolley to carry everything. As it's easier. I'll put a blanket down for her and that's my spot. And she knows that's where she's supposed to be.

S3

Fantastic. So I guess she's not a very anxious dog then.

S5

Not in those situations, no, she knows as long as mum's in eyesight, she's good.

S3

And I believe very recently Tessie had a sleepover with another assistant dog who did. So how was her anxiety level then, and how does she get on with other dogs?

S5

She, absolutely. She is extremely social. Not a mean bone, you know, she just wants to be friends. She just wants to play. Going up to where I was going to the sleepover, she was quite anxious, obviously, because I packed stuff she wasn't happy and... The last time, my bed was packed, I was being moved to someone else and then left again. But once she was here and she saw the other dog that she knows, she settled down really, really quick.

S3

So what are some of the challenges that you faced with having Guide Dog? What what are some challenges that you knew were going to happen? And then are there any challenges that you didn't foresee happening?

S5

It's it's been an adjustment across the board because I'm not just packing for me anymore. I have to pack essentially for me and the equivalent of a toddler. Yes, I know that getting packing food in a toy, you know, making sure you've got everything that you need. Wherever you're going so that the dog's going to be. My mom was quite in on helping with that and her favourite phrases you've got this for the dog, you got that for the dog. You get that for the dog, right? And you can fend for yourself. That's wow.

09:55

S3

Well, it is like that, isn't it? It is almost like packing for a kid because when you got when you go out into the wider public, and especially if you're going to be out for an extended period of time, you need to make sure they have every...

S5

You've got to make sure you've got everything. As well. So it's that double packing that can get quite tricky. It's nothing having your own mental checklists and having someone to run it all through with you to make sure you've got a.

S3

And what about the introduction of routine and structure? Because guard dogs, obviously when they're trained, have a very set routine. How are you coping with that?

S5

Perfectly fine. She's she's really good. She's adapting to my routine to. She won't come in and bug me in the morning until my alarm goes off. She knows what that sounds like, and she knows as soon as that goes off is the right time to go in and cuddle mum and wake mum up and. Mum, it's food time.

S3

And what about when it comes to the wider public? Have you had any issues with people wanting to tap the dog or interact too much with her?

S5

I have, but thankfully I can. I've been very firm. I said, look, she's on hard on us. This isn't the time for. Uni has been a bit easier. I did five day full-day intensives from 9 to 5, a few weeks ago. And the other students in the class were really, really good with it. They would wait till break time when I'd take her out to the bathroom and I'd take her harness off. She do what she has to do, and then they'd all come over and she knew she'd get a cut of that. That tended to be the routine. 

They're the one that was actually really annoying for that. Was the lecturer teaching it. Even with the harness song, we had to keep reminding her each day that you shouldn't be talking to. Yeah, she's got the harness on and she kept doing it and it was actually getting really frustrating.

S3

And how does having a dog compare to the same user....

S5

For the dog. Well obviously. But it's going to be a lot more confident. Okay. When I used to walk with the cane, I was always looking down, checking my feet, checking where we were going. But now that I've got the dog, I very rarely actually look down when I'm walking. I can just take off with. And I know she will keep me safe.

S3

And what about you walking today?

S5

It's definitely increasing. But the both of us have now got to get fit because obviously the training is intensive, but they don't do stamina work with them. They do training in bursts and it's short things and a little bit here, a little bit there. Whereas I want to start doing a lot more long distance things with her. But neither of us are active at this point, that we can both do it against the both having to work on that together.

S3

What is Tess's food distraction like? Because with Lacey, you can't take her anywhere without food, without packing a whole tea or something to that.

S5

Actually, she's really good with her food distraction. Food distraction doesn't seem to be an issue for her when she's working for her. It's other dogs. That's her big. Her big distraction when we're out working as if there's another dog around and they come close enough, she can. She get very, very excited. And I do use a halter because it just gives me that element. Fall over because for a small dog she is exceptionally strong.

S3

She is, she is. And for Lacey and I, it's the complete opposite. Her food distraction is off the charts. But when it comes to other dogs, she could not care less.

?

She was just found out her work and be fine with that. In fact, she gets really annoyed and frustrated when the dogs approach her and she's working.

?

Don't blame him.

S1

So guide dogs are basically dogs. They are like any other dog. They have their weaknesses, they have their strengths, and they can be extremely aggravating if I got that right.

S3

Yeah, definitely. Lacey's biggest distraction, as I said before, is food. She doesn't really care too much about other dogs. I think it's been trained into her pretty hard that, you know, you don't associate with other dogs while you're working, and that sort of carried off into her when she's off harness as well. She really doesn't associate with other dogs, but you get no such distractions with canes. Obviously, canes don't want to eat everybody's food off the table, and canes don't care about other cane users. So I think there's definitely the pros to having a cane over a dog. But I know for a fact that Alex has absolutely thrived having her dog, and there's just so much of the world opened up to her since she got hers.

S1

The gist I'm picking up is know your moments. Really?

S3

Yeah, I definitely there are definitely situations that I would not take Lacey to, and it took me a long time to learn what those situations were. And I'm still learning. There are still times that I think would have been better if I'd just taken the good old white cane, but yeah, it's a learning curve. It's a learning process.

S2

This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.

S1

Who are you hearing from next?

S3

I believe we'll hear from Corey.

S6

I've got to buy some... You can pace out your straps a bit more. You can. You know that your dog will get around you around obstacles. You.... might slip under. Like what happened to me after my guide dog retired or went back to using cane. And my brother had his guide dog and he went around the obstacle, which was a step in my cane went underneath it and I smack my face into it. Ouch. Yes.

Guard dogs generally avoid that sort of thing, and it's quite often it'll take you around obstacles that you don't even know she's taking you around. I had a guide dog for nine years, and if I had more work, I'd go back to having another dog.

S3

Have you ever found that there's any situations where the cane is more convenient?

S6

Yeah, there have been situations such as if you've got to go to a particular part of a hospital where you can't take dogs, or if you're going to someone's house and they don't want you to take the job. And so you've got to use your cane in those places. So sometimes easier when you're learning something to do it with a cane first and then use your dog and or, you know, it really depends on the situation.

S3

So you find that having a dog is beneficial to you when out in public.

16:19

S6

Oh yeah. It's an icebreaker for staff. They see you've got a dog, so people are more tending to talk to you because you've got the dog and I quite often they'll talk to the dog and expect the dog to answer them back and expect the dog to hear what they're saying. And, you know. But no, it can be an icebreaker in the classroom.

S3

Way, you know. So apart from of the other things you mentioned before, are there any cons to having a guide dog over a cane?

S6?

A cane? Companionship. Like, you know, walking your companion, it's because you can always talk to your dog. And so it's a bit stupid talking to your cane, isn't it? I think you're saying so. At least when you're walking along with your dog, you can tell I'm going to have such and such to do this. And I need to talk to the dog. And they love it. They wait their tail and they have to get up to.

S1

So company is another one of those things. If you like dogs, then maybe yes, a guide dog might be for you, but I've actually got a friend who's never owned a guide dog in his life is totally blind, and his own several other, well, dog dogs. And he likes dogs. He just doesn't want a guide dog.

S3

Yeah, I can understand why that would be. There are definitely situations where I've thought to myself, oh geez, Lacey, why did you have to do that? Um, you know, things like eating food off of shelves and tables and things like that. Um, the dogs company is really great, especially if you're traveling, traveling alone. And it's been a long day. I myself have been known to talk to my dog on the bus or the train on the way home. Oh, it's been a stressful day and things like that. And it just sort of helps you to unload what you've been through and unwind, and it kind of helps the dog bond to you a bit as well, because it feels as if it's part of your life.

S1

What about the way people react to guide dogs? I mean, that can be a bit of a nuisance, can't it?

S3

Definitely, definitely. It's really hard, especially when you're traveling to somewhere and you need to be there at a specific time, like when you're traveling to an appointment or work or such, and people come up to you and they want to ask you about the dog. You don't want to appear rude. So what are you supposed to say? And there's also times where you really just don't feel like talking to people, and people will approach you on the bus. Some people who are more socially anxious find that it's just too overwhelming because people are constantly approaching them to ask about the dog. And you do tend to get a lot of people interested asking questions. You don't get that with a cane.

S1

And you don't get that with other working dogs. For some reason, we put together a skit some time ago that looked at how things would work if people treated other working dogs the same way as guide dogs.

S3

Won't get behind. Excuse me. I just noticed how disgracefully you're treating your dog.
You do know this is private property. So I find it quite disgusting. Oh, well.

S1

Everyone's a critic.

?

Excuse me. What are you doing? Oh, I love beagles.

?

They're so cute and cuddly. Yeah, you love that scratch on the tummy, don't you?

S1

Right. They've gone into that area. Scrub. Peter Pan can take care of this one.

?

Oh, you just pretend I'm not here. Can I pet your dog? Just doggy you are.

?

Three AEDs already located. Suspect more.

20:00

?

Excuse me. I love German Shepherds. Can I just.

S1

Just a little bit of mischief we got up to some time ago. A big thank you to Pam and Ron for helping out with that.

S3

That's absolutely hilarious to have a chuckle at the last one. Yeah, it's funny, they the other dogs, police dogs, and sniffer dogs don't seem to get the same amount of attention. I think it's because people are scared of them. Maybe I don't know.

S1

And also scared of the people that are holding them. It does seem to be if you have a disability, then you don't have the ability necessarily to react. That's always been my thought on the matter. But.

S3

Well, I suppose a policeman or woman is probably a bit more intimidating than a five foot two blind girl with a guide dog.

S1

It's exactly who are we hearing from next, Lisa?

S5

So I'd actually like to make a point.

?

That I don't actually prefer a guide dog over a cane or a cane over a guide dog. I find that they are both quite useful in different circumstances for me to go to and from dropping my son off at school and shopping. I actually prefer to use a guide dog as then I can walk at speed. It also frees up my vision so that I can watch my son or look for something while we're going shopping. The cane is useful for times where you want to go out to places like live bands and such, where it's more inconvenient to have a dog, and the dog would probably be more happy at home. 

Some of the pros and cons of using a guide dog for me are... While it's good for mobility and freeing up my vision for other things, quite often you'll find that people like to interrupt you to compliment you on the dog, or ask 1,000,001 questions about the dog. Now, I'm the type of person who likes to educate people, but when you sit and having a meal with somebody, it can become quite frustrating. But on the other hand, it's also a good way to meet people because sometimes on the bus, people will talk to you and you can actually make friends.

S1

Have you met special friends? Thanks to your guide dog.

S3

Yeah I did. I actually met an ex-partner of mine at the Saulsbury railway station because of my guide dog. Um, she was soaking wet because it had been raining, and we were just on a long walk to get there. And, yeah, she happened to have a towel on her, and so we dried the dog off together. And yeah, it was kind of a beginning of something, you know, special. But I think that's the only thing I can think of.

S1

I used to have a regular lunch date with my best mate at at a coffee shop in Darwin, and the waitress would always come out and say Hello, beautiful to the guide dog. And I would very predictably say, oh, hello.

S3

Yes, that's happened to me once. I went out to lunch with a couple of friends and the waitress came up and she was bringing our coffees and she goes, oh, aren't you cute? And I said, yeah, I think so. And we got a laugh out of that. But yeah, it's just it provides so many moments to bond with other people and otherwise start a conversation that you wouldn't normally have.

S1

So last of all, we are listening to Steven, I believe.

S3?

I believe so.

?

One thing, when you get on a bus, people don't want to pick your cane and you can't fold up a guide dog.

S3

Oh yes. So it's all about size and convenience, right?

?

And I find a guide dog or seeing eye dog or whatever. It can be cute and companion knee, but can be also cumbersome and a little bit annoying when you're trying to concentrate on crossing a road or going into a public area. It can be a bit a bit of a pain, a bum, because what happens is people will want to stop or they get distracted. The dog gets distracted. People get distracted when they come up pat the dog all the time. Sometimes they do it without asking permission, which they tend not to do. When you've got a folding cane, nobody wants to pack your cane.

S3

And what about the impact to the speed of your walking with a cane? Do you find that it slows you down, or are you still just as confident with a cane?

?

I can only go so fast, but with a dog especially like seeing eye dog, I should say when you go for long walks along the beach, you can go at a really good pace on long walks along Esplanade, that sort of thing. Or hiking trail. You can go whatever speed you would like, but with a cane you can only sort of go so fast because you've got to swing it left to right. And if you go too fast, you bugger up your rhythm, rhythm a little bit.

S3

So having used the cane and also having observed other people with dogs, which one do you prefer? 

?

Well, it's a tricky one. I do prefer canes because I can fold it up, put it away, get it out. I can use that to track the size of stairs or obstacles. Whereas with a guide dog I can't feel what the guide dog is doing.

S1

So yes, I think Steven falls into my thought stream and that is. Yes, it's a I mean, I'm even worse, I've got to admit, because I can get away with not carrying a cane. I own a very, very nice little ID cane, which sits very well in a bag or my back pocket. And I've often said to people that when they've said, well, why don't you get a guide dog? Well, I'm waiting for the specially trained chihuahuas on stilts.

S3

Oh.

S1

I can fold up and put in my back pocket.

S3

Or the robo-dogs that you can compact.

S1

Yeah, exactly. I mean, maybe they'll eventually be an app for it.

25:39

S3

Maybe. I mean, that would be interesting. I'd love to see how that would work. But yeah, I've spoken to a lot of people who have bad depth perception or peripheral vision, and for them, the cane is a lot easier because it helps them to to determine just how big or large or shallow a step is. I've had incidences with Lacey where she's gone up a step. I've misjudged the depth and fallen over. I've also fallen down a flight of stairs, but that's another story for another day, and I definitely think a cane would have prevented me from doing that.

S1

My friend Roberto's dog at one stage decided to take him underneath a large gate, and the dog logic seemed to be that if I can fit through it, then so can the person that's guiding me.

S3

Yeah, that's a common occurrence with with Lacey and I, especially with trees, low hanging trees.

S1

And we have run out of time.

S3

That's all for now. A big thank you to Bill, Alex, Corey, Lisa and Stephen, for your input.

S1

And of course, thank you for listening. Next week I'll catch up with the chair of the Vision Australia board, Bill Jolley.

S3

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One, or if you think that there's something we should be talking about.

S1

You never know. Your story and your insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar. Our email address is studio one at Vision Australia-dot-org, that's studio one at Vision Australia-dot-org.

27:17

S2

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio One.