00:30 S1
This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.
00:34 S2
Okay, we're about ready to go into studio. Yeah.
00:37 S3
Okay, good. I'm ready. Yeah. You got your script there.
00:39 S2
It's all fine. Yeah.
00:41 S3
I think so. Let me have a look. Yep.
00:43 S2
I've got some business from last week, apparently. We didn't really explain ourselves properly. The segue to the segue. Our main body of the show wasn't quite right.
00:53 S3
Segue? You mean to say that we have a segue?
00:57 S2
No. What I meant was... no, we definitely do not have a segue.
01:01 S3
Bull. I don't believe you. Where is it?
01:03 S2
No, no, no, we do not have anything like that. We do not have any electric vehicles at all stored around here.
01:10 S3
I don't believe you, Sam. I don't believe you. Where is this segue?
01:15 S2
No, no, no, it's not. It's not in. It's not in the corner over there at all. It's not.
01:18 S3
Get too lazy. Look after that bike. No, look. Look here. There's the dog. You take the dog. Right? I'm going to take this thing for a spin. I never get to have any fun. Yeah this is, haha. This is so much fun honestly. Oh my goodness. Oh. What's fun dude?
01:48 S2
Hello, I'm Sam...
01:49 S3
And I'm Lizzie.
01:50 S2
And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view - here on Vision Australia Radio.
01:55 S3
On this week's show...
01:57 S2
We're heading back to university.
01:59 S3
What's it like to undertake tertiary education as a student with a vision impairment? We talk to Alex and Maddy, who share their stories and the challenges they faced.
02:08 S2
As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there is something we should be talking about, you never know - your story and insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.
02:23 S3
That's right. You can contact us via email at studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's Studio number 1 at Vision Australia dot org. Or perhaps you can drop us a note on our Facebook page. Just go to facebook.com slash radio network.
02:40 S2
Okay Lizzy, what did you do with the segue?
02:43 S3
I think you might find it halfway down the stairs... really sorry about that.
02:47 S2
Okay. No worries. So we are looking at tertiary studies again. We haven't done this for a good year or so, have we?
02:55 S3
No, no we haven't. And... what inspired me to do this is, I was actually chatting to a friend of mine who we're going to hear from in a bit, who has pursued a visual arts degree with a visual impairment. And I thought, There's no way that that could be possible.
03:10 S2
Well, it is, and we had quite a long conversation. We are catching up with both Alex and Maddy this week. There is a part that I did cut out because Alex had a good point to say, but it was the wrong way of putting it.
03:25 S3
Yes.
03:26 S2
Yeah, and the whole thing is, is that wherever you are in Australia, one of the things that I think you should be taking into, into account when you've got a choice of universities to go to, is can you find your way around it? Is it an easy layout that that you're not going to get lost in? And that was, I thought, the point that you made, as opposed to comparing one South Australian University to another South Australian university.
03:49 S3
Well, I think the other point that she made, the other point that she was trying to make with that statement is to research who has the better disability access plan or the disability access in general, because there are unis that that are not as... accessible, and there are unis that go above and beyond to make the curriculums accessible for students with disability. So do your research and look around. Don't just go for the first thing you find.
04:19 S2
And that goes that goes nationally as well. I mean, of course some people listening might actually be looking at going to university interstate or they, you know, they might have actually looked at the tertiary institutions in their local area and gone, You know what? I don't want any of it. So it does actually pay to jump on the internet or whatever and do a bit of research, see if you know somebody that's been there and see what they think.
04:44 S3
There's plenty of forums. I'm sure there are plenty of, you know, blind and vision impaired people around who have undertaken tertiary education that would be happy to help. Not only that, but I think the online curriculums are fairly accessible these days. So, you know, it's worth having a chat to some online universities as well, if that's an option you want to pursue.
05:03 S2
There are options, but let's first hear from Alex and then we will catch up with Maddie.
05:15 S3
So Alex, can you describe to us your academic background? Where, or what did you study and where?
05:21 S4
I studied a Bachelor of Social Work at Flinders University.
05:26 S3
And how long did that take you?
05:26 S4
That was a four year degree.
05:29 S3
Okay. And did you undertake your studies full-time or part-time?
05:33 S4
Oh, I did it full-time. I was absolutely determined to.
05:36 S3
So given that you do have a vision impairment, what sort of adjustments were made in order for you to be able to... complete the curriculum?
05:45 S4
So the biggest one was ensuring that I had what Flinders describes as a Disability Access Plan. So what that enabled was, you sit down with an advisor and they write out the adjustments that you're going to need to do assignments, to do exams, to be able to do your projects and other academic pursuits within your degree - which you then provide to the topic coordinator and your tutor so that they are aware of what adjustments the Disability Services has said you are actually reasonably going to need.
06:27 S3
So what adjustments did you require?
06:29 S4
I was given up to an extra seven days on assignments. I was also allowed a support worker in while I was doing exams. Not, and I think I only had maybe two of those and allowed the use of the specific assistive technology room in the library to do those exams, should I have needed it. And those were the big, the big adjustments.
07:00 S3
So what about going to lectures and tutorials? Did you have to sit up front? Were there any accommodations that you needed to have made there?
07:06 S4
For those, it was keeping in contact with the coordinator and the tutor to make sure the slides were accessible well before the class or the lectures, so that I could have them on a screen in front of me, or have had chance to go over them before the classes so that I wasn't having to struggle trying to see slides on the screen at the front of the classroom.
07:30 S3
So what sort of adaptive technology did you need to use in order to complete the curriculum?
07:35 S4
I originally started the degree using a piece of humanware technology through a tablet and a camera. So the camera, you could actually you could focus it on what you wanted to look at and zoom it in and out on the tablet screen, and you could put stuff under it to do the same thing, and it would read what was under it. Eventually that got too... difficult to be using, to do what I wanted to do. So I went to using a laptop with a screen reader and my home machine with a screen reader, plus my hand magnifier, depending on what was going on on the screen.
08:15 S3
And did you ever have any issues with your... topic coordinators or tutors having issues with your, the disability?
08:23 S4
I had one... major issue and one minor issue that I managed to handle fairly well. The first one actually came in in my first year studying the degree, and the, one of the assignments was, you had you had to do a reflection every week, and then one of them would be uploaded to be assessed. The issue was, you didn't know which one it was until you opened the assessment. And then it was, you've got 30 minutes to fine tune and upload that particular reflection. I got into quite a heated email discussion with the topic coordinator about how that's just not feasible for me, and eventually I offered the solution of uploading two, four to be marked.
And the coordinator's comment to me, coming back was, Oh, you do this, you'll never make the learning outcomes for the topic, I turned around and came out of that topic with a Distinction. So that was in first year.
09:27 S3
Yeah, that's a pretty rude thing to say, isn't it?
09:30 S4
Oh yeah. That was the the biggest issue I had actually dealing directly with the topic coordinator, but I found it was the biggest Haha, told you so by getting a distinction in her topic, for sure.
09:42 S3
And what advice would you give to other students with a disability who are thinking about studying, but you know, the thought of it is just so intimidating to them.
09:51 S4
Contact disability services, discuss it with them. They'll come up with a plan with you, and that plan you then can discuss with your coordinators to ensure that all your adjustments are fair and equitable, and that they can make sure that any assessment that you do is adjusted for your level of vision. That was the big one I had in third in third year, doing an elective. That was Sociology. They had two assignments that I physically couldn't do. One was a, Here's a painting - tell us what you feel about it. Oh, sure. I mean, it's a red blob on the screen. I can tell you how I feel about a red blob, but I don't think that's what you want.
The other was doing a ten minute presentation with slides on a topic. And of course, for me, because I... can't read Braille yet, having any form of notes on anything and being able to record and edit and upload a video for an assessment is almost impossible. So they had to completely adjust the first and the second assignment of the three for that topic so that I could actually complete the course. And not only did it... shake up that particular topic, but the course coordinator - because I ensured to email the course coordinator because things took too long, to say, This is what's going on. She brought in every topic coordinator and tutor and went, This isn't on. We are reshaping the degree and ensuring we have a bucket of adjusted assessments for people with visual disabilities and other disabilities. So I've shaken a few few different topics and courses in my four years while I've been there.
11:51 S3
That leads me very nicely to my next question, which was, Have you ever had to advocate on behalf of yourself or other students with a disability to make the material accessible or the campus safer?
12:07 S4
Yes, the answer is yes. You've just heard about obviously advocating for myself, but I managed to get invited as a student to sit on the entire university's Disability and Access Committee, and the first thing I brought up were the massive white pillars in the main hub area on the campus. Now, normally it's not an issue, but the trouble is, one wall is is windows, which means as soon as the sun comes in, so does the glare and those pillars all but disappear. Number of times I've run into those pillars I have lost count. The first suggestion I made was to put some form of colour banding on those pillars. That way, even when the light hits them, those colour bands are still at eye level for those that can see them, so that the pillars still stand out.
Within my first three months they had them painted and a number of times I also helped to ensure that the what they call their accessible pathway from the hub up to the top of the education building was actually sufficiently signposted and bright enough in a colour that we can actually see. The markers for that are all bright orange. Oh, lovely. So they've got markers on the floor that are actually... textiles. So when you run your cane over it, it's a different texture so that you know you're following the correct path. They're bright orange. If you've got support with you, they've actually got a QR code on the markers on the wall that actually give you the directions and which numbers in the lifts to press.
They've gone through and Brailled and lettered the... numbers that you have to push to follow that accessible pathway. They've actually put labels next to the lift numbers so that you can actually it's lettered and brailled so that you can find the correct number to follow the pathway.
14:11 S3
And you also, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, you've got a guide, a dog [?like in] your last year of study?
14:20 S4
I did, yes.
14:21 S3
And how were your lecturers and tutors and the other students? What were their attitudes towards you when you then bought the guide dog?
14:30 S4
Nothing really changed, because of the degree I was studying. All, they were very much on top of. Okay, she's working as hard as it is because she's cute. We know we have to ignore her. So everyone was actually really, really good about it. When I first bought, when I started bringing her in and she adapted pretty quickly, learnt the pathway quite well. She's got that campus well and truly sorted.
15:00 S3
Well, Alex, thank you for sharing your time with me and your story as well.
15:04 S4
Of course.
15:11 S3
Maddie, thanks for joining us on Studio 1. It is great to have you here.
15:14 S5
Thanks, Lizzie. Thanks for having me.
15:16 S3
So just firstly, what is your academic background? What did you study and where?
15:20 S5
So I've done a few degrees. When I graduated high school, I went to Marden Senior College and I did a... certificate for in painting and drawing. So that was a one year course. Yeah. So that was kind of like a good starting place before, like moving straight into uni. So that was fun. Then after that I did a Bachelor of Visual Arts, Creative Arts. So that was like a double degree with Flinders Uni and TAFE SA. Oh brilliant. So that was a three year course and yeah it was a lot of fun. You just got to try different like art forms. And then in your final year pick one that you wanted to focus on. And then after completing that degree I got really into my sport. So I kind of wanted to like study something in the sport field as well. So I did a Bachelor of Letters Sport Performance Coaching at Flinders Uni. So I did that over three years.
16:17 S3
I'm dying to hear about the Sports Performance, so we'll get to that in a little bit. Okay. But firstly you did a Visual Arts degree while living with a vision impairment, which is incredible.
16:27 S5
Yeah I did.
16:28 S3
What adjustments did you need to make in order to get the projects done?
16:32 S5
I think a big thing for me was just like using my technology to help me, like my iPad and my MacBook. Like, I do all sort of like my theory work on the computer. And instead of, like, handwriting all of my notes, like I'd type up things and print them out as much as possible. I'd also use my iPad a lot, like the camera on it and, you know, take photos of my work as I'm going so I can, like, zoom in and actually see, like, the details and things that I can't normally. And it was really good as well, just for like taking photos of like example works. Or if we had to copy like an object to draw, then I could like take a photo of it, zoom in and actually see it. So that made it possible.
17:14 S3
That's incredible. And so just, you know, to go into this, what is your vision impairment or what is your eye condition, I guess?
17:21 S5
So, I have albinism. So I'm very light-sensitive and I see about six metres ahead of me. So I don't see like, details or anything.
17:32 S3
What about colours? Because I imagine visual arts is quite a colour-centric sort. Of course. Yeah. How do you go with spotting different colours and things like that?
17:40 S5
Really? Well, like I can see colours completely normal, so that's good.
17:44 S3
Well, that's a relief.
17:45 S5
Yeah.
17:46 S3
How did your tutors and lecturers... help you to adjust the curriculum? And were they, you know, were they more than accommodating?
17:54 S5
Yeah, most of my lecturers were really good. So I kind of just like, would go to them. And if I was struggling with something, I'd try and find a way to work around it, or I'd let them know that I was struggling with something and we kind of just come up with a solution together. But they were really accommodating and happy for me to, like, use my iPad or my computer or whatever. I kind of needed to be able to get the work done.
18:19 S2
You said most of your lecturers. That's an interesting...
18:23 S5
I've had one who was not very accommodating and made things quite challenging.
18:28 S3
It's always the way, isn't it? Yeah. You're not the only one that said that. Yeah. I guess nobody likes change.
18:35 S2
Can you give me any examples of what you'd call unhelpful?
18:38 S5
Just like, not following through with, like, my access plan. You know, like, if I needed an extension, then, yeah, she wouldn't approve it. Or just not so willing to let me use my technology, how I needed to, and that kind of thing.
18:52 S3
And were the disability liaison officers at your university? Did they advocate on behalf of you?
18:58 S5
They couldn't do much at the time just because that was that course was like also with, like the TAFE side of things. So that subject fell more under like the TAFE side. And... yeah, they couldn't do a whole lot. Wow. So that made it challenging. Yeah.
19:14 S3
Now the one I'm really interested in this sports performance coaching. Yeah. I could imagine that there'd be a lot of scientific sort of information. How did you go with that side of things? And, you know, with a vision impairment as well?
19:27 S5
Yeah... so it was kind of like, the course was half science-based and half like physical education-based. So I really enjoyed the science side of it as it's like I've never actually done it before. So one of our classes was Functional Anatomy, which was a challenge. But they yeah, were really accommodating with like again, letting me use like my computer for everything. And like if we were in class like they had like, a skeleton model. So like I was able to actually like, you know, go up and like see it close. So they were really accommodating for all of that.
20:03 S3
And your lecturers and tutors again, were pretty accommodating.
20:06 S5
Yeah, everyone was really good.
20:08 S3
So did you have to do exams for that course?
20:10 S5
Yeah, I was lucky that my exams were online so I could be at home. I could use my desktop computer and zoom in as much as I needed to, and have all of my notes already written out on my iPad next to me. So... that was really good.
20:25 S3
And did your disability access plan allow for more time with your exams?
20:29 S65
Yep. And that helped a lot. Just it just takes a little bit longer to like, read through questions and answers and find the answers in all of my notes and things. So that was very helpful.
20:39 S3
I can imagine. So how did you go about making your disability access plan, like when you decided, All right, this is what I want to do - I want to go into tertiary education. What steps did you take to get your disability access plan put in place?
20:54 S6
So when I enrolled for my courses, I was able to go and speak to the disability services at Flinders. Yep. And they walked me through the whole process of creating my access plan, um, and explained how it all works. And we kind of went through all my accommodations of what I needed and what would be helpful. And then that got sent out to all of my lecturers. I didn't have to notify any of my lecturers that I had a disability or anything, but I chose to just like, email them at the start of each subject and just let them know who I was and what my disability was, and just kind of say, like, if there are any accommodations that I knew I needed, then I could let them know.
21:39 S3
Amazing. And were there any times where you had to advocate on behalf of yourself or other students with the disability to improve the safety or access of the campus?
21:51 S5
Yeah. So Flinders were actually really good in that... so they would kind of send out emails like when construction work was happening around the place. So if, you know, a path was going to be torn up somewhere, they'd let you know in advance, which was really helpful. And then I also helped in starting like a disability collective at Flinders. So kind of like a network for people with disabilities. And we created like a disability space for students with disabilities to go. Cool.
22:23 S3
So you helped to create that?
S5
Yeah.
S3
That's amazing. Actually, I think I know a little bit of something about that, because my stepdaughter is currently going to Flinders University and studying history and creative writing, and she's just gotten into that collective, I think.
S5
Oh, nice.
S3
Yeah. So that's amazing. Congratulations. Thanks. So how did you go about getting around the campus when you first decided you wanted to go there? Did it take you long to figure out how to get around?
22:52 S5
It wasn't too bad. So back when I first started at Flinders, it was a bit overwhelming just how big the campus was. So I contacted Guide Dogs and... got an orientation session at Flinders. Yep. So they kind of just like helped me learn to navigate across the whole campus, which was really helpful. And I always found like finding my classes at the start of a term really challenging. So I kind of like reached out to like support workers. And if there was anyone who'd been to Flinders before and knew the campus they were good for, like helping me learn like where new classes are so I could go and like, find them in advance before actually starting. So that was really helpful.
23:39 S2
Were there any occasions... because I know sometimes university life can be a little bit stressful, where you let the stress get over you and maybe got lost, because I found that happened a few times, I would be walking along thinking about what I was going to present at a tutorial or something like that, and I'd take a wrong turn, and all of a sudden I was like, Where am I?
24:00 S5
Yeah, yeah, it happens. Like, if you're not paying attention, you definitely can get lost there.
24:06 S3
And you said before just touching back on the sports performance thing, you were doing physical education as part of what sort of things did you have to do and how did your vision impairment impact your ability to do that?
24:18 S6
Most of our classes were quite physical. So... some of it was like basically playing like games you would in PE or like doing team sports and team activities and things together. Yeah. So I don't normally let other classmates know that I am disabled. I try to like just get on with it in my own way. But for these classes, I did go to the lecturer and say like... If you could just like, let everyone in the class know that I have a vision impairment. So if you go to like, throw a ball at me or like, you know, we're running around in a group, then like I'm going to struggle. So that was actually really helpful. And all the students were really good about it.
So... we did like different team sports like basketball, netball, football, that kind of thing. So I definitely had a go at everything. But it was quite challenging at times. I found that I was best off to like sit out of the basketball, but everything else, like I had to go out. So yeah, students would kind of like, you know, let me know if they were going to throw a ball in my direction or, you know, like if I wasn't getting as involved as them, they were totally fine with it. So yeah, it was definitely challenging.
25:30 S2
If someone wanted to actually take up a similar course or even go into, say, a coaching field, do you have any suggestions or workarounds? So for a vision impaired person doing what you did. So anything you could impart that may mean that future generations will go, Oh, Maddie, thank you. You saved my life.
25:49 S5
I think just... being able to, like, self-advocate for, like, what you need and maybe, like, it's going to take, like, a bit of trial and error, like, you're not going to come into a class straight away and have all the answers to help you like it might take a few classes to actually realise like, Oh, this would actually be really helpful if we did this this way. Like, I found getting my own sporting equipment for things really helpful. Like... for example, when we were playing netball, we used like a brightly coloured ball instead of just like a white one. So... the contrast was really good in that sense. And... yeah, I think that's been really helpful.
26:30 S2
Any amusing accidents?
26:33 S5
No. Surprisingly not.
26:36 S3
I'm glad to hear that. Yeah, because I would, I think I'd die of embarrassment if it was me. This isn't a question that I don't think a lot of people would think to ask, but how did you deal with the social aspect of tertiary education? Because, you know, a lot of people put emphasis on getting the right disability access plan and making sure that the course materials are tailored to them. But socially is another thing.
27:00 S5
Yeah it is. Yeah. It's always difficult when you first go to uni and you like, don't know where to sit in a class and you don't know if you should like stay by yourself or try and join a group or you know, and a lot of people have already come in with like friend groups. And, if you're in a subject, it doesn't mean you're going to be in the same class as everyone else that's in that subject. So people make friends in different classes, and that can just be a bit challenging because you're kind of like on your own, wondering where you should try and fit in. So that's a challenge.
And for me, like just recognising people's faces and learning their names is a really big challenge for me. So, I'd say that, like some advice I have would be to like, get involved with like, different sport clubs or like any of the other different clubs that the uni offers. And yeah, try and make friends, and even just say like Hi to people in your class, and try and kind of get to know, like, who's there. And... that's helpful.
28:02 S3
You're quite active within the sporting clubs at your uni, aren't you?
S5
Yeah.
S3
So what sporting clubs are you, or were you in?
28:09 S5
So I'm in the Flinders Athletic Club and... I have been pretty much for the whole time I've been at uni, and I've even taken up the role of secretary in the club. So I get to be involved more now that I'm doing more cycling than running.
S3
Oh, wicked.
S5
Yeah. I also was in the athlete development program at Flinders, which was great because they provide like, you know, custom SMC programs and like supervised gym sessions. So doing those sessions like I made friends and it was kind of like a good social thing as well. And even getting involved in like the different uni sport activities, like you can join any sport and just compete against the other unis for fun. So... yeah, I did wheelchair basketball a couple of times, which was cool.
28:56 S3
Oh, cool. Yeah, I imagine that would have been lots of fun.
S5
It was great.
S3
So what is your plan now that you've finished your two degrees... what you're, what are you planning to do now?
29:07 S5
I'm planning to use my sport performance degree... to do, like coaching in athletics, and para athletics as well I'm interested in. And yeah, I've just kind of, been focusing on my cycling career and trying to progress that. And yeah, I'd like to continue.
29:24 S3
She's an amazing cyclist, by the way. Well thank you, Maddie, for joining us. It's been really great talking to you. I've loved hearing your story and your experiences. Thank you for sharing all of that with us.
S5
You're welcome.
29:37 S2
Thank you very much, Maddie. So before we leave you today, we're quite excited about what's coming up in the next couple of weeks because, well, we've looked ahead and there are a few things that are coming up in November that's, well, rather exciting really.
29:51 S3
Oh, please do tell.
29:52 S2
So next week, of course, we are talking to Amar Latif, who is the founder of Traveleyes. And that is, well, a really wonderful interview. It's took way longer than we were expecting, but it was a joy from start to finish. And then after that we're going to Techfest. This is the largest expo for adaptive equipment for blind and vision impaired people in Australia. From what we understand, and nowhere else actually does anything like it. That is specifically for the blind and vision impaired population. So we're after that. We'll be talking to a few of the stallholders there. So, people like... Humanware and a few of the few of the other things and getting to actually fondle the goods, as it were.
30:41 S3
Oh, I'm looking forward to that.
30:42 S2
And of course, after that. Well, Lizzie can explain that one.
30:46 S3
Yes. Later in November, we are hearing from Annette Holden and Barbie Robinson, who have well co-authored a book together about Annette's story with vision loss and her Guide Dogs. So that book is being released nationally in November, and we'll have all the details of where you can access that book.
31:04 S2
And of course, yes, for the first time ever, we'll be coming to you on on Christmas and New Year's Day because both of these days fall on a Wednesday.
31:12 S3
Yeah, that means more Studio 1 for you. But of course, between now and then, please do get in touch with the show whether you have any experience with the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think that there is something that we should be talking about. You never know, your story and insight may help someone who is dealing with something similar.
31:32 S2
You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's Studio and number 1 at Vision Australia dot org.
31:38 S3
Or perhaps you can drop us a note on our socials, Instagram or Facebook. Just look up RVA Radio Network, we want to hear from you.
31:47 S2
Bye for now. Now where did you leave that bike?
31:50 S3
Oh, down the stairs, I told you.
31:51 S1
Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.
