Dating Blind - a special podcast presentation

00:06 S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

00:18 S2

Hi, I'm Sam.

00:19 S3

And I'm Lizzie.

00:20 S2

And you're listening to Studio 1, Radio's weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view.

00:26 S3

In this special podcast, we present the highlights of Dating Blind, a trilogy of episodes that we airing between February and April this year.

00:36 S2

In the series, we explore the challenges we face when dating and forming new connections. We also talk to members of the LGBT community about how their experiences differ, and we examine the assumptions and preconceived notions that society holds about dating and blindness.

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As always, we encourage you to get in touch with us whether you have experience with any of the issues covered in this special podcast of Studio One, or whether you think there's a topic that we should discuss, your story.

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And insight may help someone else who is dealing with something similar. You can contact us via email - studio1@visionaustralia.org ... that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

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You can also find us on all the socials like Facebook, Instagram and X by simply searching Vision Australia Radio.

01:24 S2

Hello, Lizzie.

01:25 S3

Hey, Sam, how are you going?

01:27 S2

I am good - and to any podcast listeners, well, surprise, we're here and we didn't have a weekly show to go with it. We're also here for an hour, which oh my God, how are we going to do this? How do you think we are going to do this, Lizzie?

01:40 S3

Well, the power of the playback machine. But my question is more along the lines of how are they going to put up with us for an hour?

01:48 S2

Well, it's not going to be just us. So the reason why we've put this... particular podcast episode together is a lot of the interviews we did were over Zoom, and some of those connections were, well, a tad dodgy. So. And yes, the irony being is that Lizzie's on Zoom at the moment, aren't you?

02:06 S3

I am, I am, but sitting in my own comfortable office at home.

02:11 S2

Yes, indeed. What we've recently had access to is some Artificial Intelligence software. It comes through the Adobe Express suite and it's called Voice Highlight. What this basically means is that I can upload something there. It can get rid of all the nasty little stuff in the background and all the somewhat... muffled things you might get of someone talking on the phone. And yes, that was done in a very high tech way with me putting my hands over my face. But yes, so. And it can come out almost sounding like the interview was done in the studio. And you've heard some of the results of this, Lizzie?

02:43 S3

Yes. And the one thing I'm really happy about with this is that we can take interviews from the past where the content was great, but the audio wasn't so good, and we can now make it even better. And then we can re-release it.

02:58 S2

And also because we ended up with three episodes out of the one subject, we can group things together now. So that will be the plan. So I'll say this to your listener: if there's anything else you want to hear again, or anything else you don't want to hear again by any chance, also let us know. But also if you think there's anything that should be grouped together that you would find interesting going into an hour long episode, I don't rule out actually doing specific episodes for this format as well because, well, we're here for you, the listener.

03:28 S3

Yeah, I personally think a travelling episode would be great. So, you know, I'll just leave my feedback there.

03:34 S2

All right. Just drop me an email at the Studio 1 at Vision Australia.

03:37 S3

Okay, I will do. I thought I might have been exempt from that rule, but you know.

03:41 S2

No, no, no, I'm an ex public servant, after all. I ever wanted everything in triplicate.

03:46 S3

Right. Okay.

03:48 S2

All right, so the first person we're talking to is Simon. Now, you could actually hear Simon on his own podcast now, which is in plain sight, and he talks to a lot of people from Western Australia who happen to have a visual impairment. But here he is talking about what it is like to be single and blind.

04:12 S4

You know. At the moment [?are the racially] 59 years old. And, are we been officially single for too many years to count? I'm a very complicated and contradictory fellow, Sam. I am very cynical person, so I don't really go in for all these holidays and special days that we're told to have, and saying that if I did have a significant other, I would probably try to do something for Valentine's Day. But when I have in the past, it's always gone quite pear shaped to be polite. And it is hard to be a romantic person, which I think I am. And... you are single. And when you get told about these special days and it often just reminds me that... I don't have a significant other. So, yeah. I'm not... a fan of of Valentine's Day. Just like I'm not really a fan of Christmas and Easter and and, you know, the special holiday apart from my birthday, which should be a holiday every year. But that's a whole 'nother matter.

05:26 S2

Oh, that should be a holiday. Definitely. Yes. We'll we should all celebrate Simon Chong's birthday.

05:31 S4

Also the start of song.

05:33 S2

Well, even even better. All right, so when you talked about some romantic gestures not quite going right, do we have any... examples of that?

05:43 S4

I'm not sure he'll be listening to this, and so I'll try and make it brilliant, but broad based, without embarrassing myself too much and without embarrassing anyone who might accidentally hear this. But it's it's that whole... pressure of getting something special right, doing something right, and a bit like New Year's Eve, really. And you book a fancy dinner and your partner doesn't like it. Or you think you've bought a nice gift and your partner doesn't like it? Or you think, Oh, we'll just play it low key because she'd said, Oh, don't make a fuss, don't worry about it. So you don't make a fuss, then you're getting told off and not making a fuss or just the pressure of tonight's going to be special, darling. Yes. 

And you both get so stressed out and you might eat this really expensive meal and drink an extra glass of champagne and then go, Oh, now I feel very well. I hung thinking things like data and where did your relationship is always stressful anyway? It just adds an extra layer of... complexity and burden that I just don't, I just don't code very well with. And whilst I talk about that, I'll open up and say that I've been I've spoken about this before. I've had bouts of anxiety and I've had bouts of depression. And I probably have a dark cloud that floats in and in and around me most of the time. Unfortunately, I also had things that really brightened me up. 

So these days, these significant holy days. Don't forget it is Saint Patrick's Day, and they make someone like myself feel even less adequate than I already do when I am feeling anxious or depressed. Being 59 as I said, never married, no kids, several file lies in the series Saint Patrick's Day, the Saint Valentine's Day. I like Saint Patrick's Day. It's all over. Saint Valentine's Day just reminds me that there's another layer of where I don't fit into this ideal society and things like that, you know? So there is a serious part to this of not really liking Valentine's Day as well.

08:08 S2

Is there... a particular day where you thought you actually did get it right, though?

08:12 S4

There was a couple of times where I thought I got it right. And there was a night where nothing went wrong as such, except that my partner at the time, we booked a hotel room. We booked a fancy Japanese restaurant, like, a lot of fancy restaurants, especially on Valentine's Day. By the time the food comes out, you had a couple of glasses of wine and she was already tired and she was prone to migraines. And by the time we had all of that, we went back to the fancy hotel room. She was feeling ill, so that was no one's fault. Except I think it was the internal pressure on that she was facing as well. 

I think I've had really lovely romantic days and nights that haven't been Valentine's Day. I was remembering one recently and again it was for my birthday and it was on the restaurant tram in Melbourne. Outfit you'd never been on the restaurant tram in Melbourne. I highly recommend it. Beautiful idea. An oldie-worldie tram all decked out in oldie-worldie turn of the century sort of fixtures and that fine dining, great food, champagne on entry, drinks included in your mail. A beautiful, beautiful experience in a very romantic gum day was had by the pair of us. But it wasn't Valentine's Day. 

09:37 S2

So when you see other people and their partners, do you feel like you're missing out?

09:42 S4

Yeah, do. I was just talking about that the other day. A couple of Fridays ago, I went out with, uh, four other people, two couples, and, you know, friends of mine, always with a big group of us, would go out for dinner a lot. And there's a table for nine. And on the ninth person, you know, especially at this age standard, it is odd to be the third wheel and truly like at a table. You're the one that sits at the end [?] by yourself kind of thing. And I do admire long term couples that are real. You see them argue, you send them being lovey dovey, and you see the respect I have for one another. And I do sometimes long for that. 

I'm not in a rush to get in a relationship. I think I have learned from my previous experiences. I haven't tested the water yet. I'm not looking for connect up online on any apps or on any online things. If I meet someone nice, I will try to pursue something and I have over the years and nothing come about. And you know, it's a it's a tricky business at this age. Like obviously I've got a lot of hangups and baggage and if someone's single now, they've probably got a lot of hang ups and baggage just to better matching and matching those bags together, saying it's not work.

11:09 S2

So what will you be doing tonight?

11:12 S4

I will be going to, I'll go down with that. The NDIS firstly through the afternoon and then I'll be going to my dad's house to have dinner with my dad, his wife and my dad's sister. So that will be our sort of family reunion as such. Come see my dad's sister and my aunty for a very long time. So yeah, that will be it. Sad. And then come home from then and put on the telly and have a glass of wine myself.

11:43 S2

Simon John, hope you, I hope you have a good night. Anyway, we'll be thinking about you as we're listening to Simple Minds. Have a good one. All right.

11:53 S4

Yeah, they're on in Adelaide this week.

11:55 S2

That's right. So what was interesting about that is Simon seemed to be more concerned about Saint Patrick's Day than Valentine's Day. I think he got a bit confused there. Any feedback you might want to give? 

12:09 S3

Well, my husband was actually born on Saint Patrick's Day and so I get this every year as well, I understand it. It's a fun holiday, I guess.

12:17 S2

Indeed. But yes, the the recording was done for the Valentine's Day episode, so... no dragons were hurt, at that stage. And although, mind you, I'm getting my Saints mixed up as well.

12:28 S3

Anyway, the next... he might be next.

12:30 S2

We are talking to Tess Herbert, and she has a very different twist on things. What did you think about what she had to say?

12:40 S3

Very insightful. You know, she explains a lot about asexuality and how she navigates relationships, being asexual. It's quite interesting and fascinating to me because I'd never spoken to anyone like her before. And, yeah, it was one of the most pleasant and insightful interviews I've done.

13:01 S2

I think as people with a disability, we can understand this a lot more because yes, the general world out there assumes that we're somehow missing out on something. But, well, I don't think we're missing out on something. Not being able to either see properly or not being able to see. And I think that really is how someone who is asexual also looks at things.

13:23 S3

Well, yeah. I mean, if you think about it, there are plenty of other aspects to a relationship that make it work. You know, there's the the connection intellectually and talking and, you know, the physical chemistry, wanting to hold hands and the things that you have in common. I mean, if you take the sexual out of it, there's still quite a lot that you've got left. You know, it's not the be all and end all of relationships.

13:48 S2

Unless you're 15 or something like that and then you miss out anyway. Yeah. Okay. Let's over to Tess. So, Tess, tell us a little bit about yourself. I mean, where do you live and what do you do for a crust?

14:02 S5

Well, I am in Albury. I am, I'm writing my first novel, which is a queer romance, and I'm nearly finished the first draft of that. I also volunteer with the Australian Web Accessibility Initiative and that that those are basically my my main areas of interest at the moment. And when I'm not doing that, I love to read everything from classics to crime. So, you know, romcoms. And I love, I love music and all, all, all manner of... crafts and fun things like that. So that's pretty much what I'm doing in my life.

14:42 S2

I believe you're totally blind. I am.

14:44 S3

Yes.

14:44 S5

Yes, I was born with septo optic dysplasia. So that has...

14:49 S3

So was I.

14:49 S5

Yeah, yeah. Ah, there you are.

14:52 S3

Amazing. And I think it's a very rare condition, too. Like there's not too many blind or visually impaired people with septo optic dysplasia in Australia.

14:59 S5

Yeah, you're quite right. And I know it's because my heart is... apart from the fact that they don't work and that purely decorative, as I always like to say. But, you know, people often say, you know, taste your urine. You know, they don't they don't they don't look, you know, they don't look the way I would expect them to look if you can't see because, yeah, the simple truth was that the optic nerve just never developed and nothing else was, and nothing else was really wrong with them. I don't really do anything they just said. They just stood on my head, which is fine.

15:27 S3

It's very interesting you should say that, because I always like to use the analogy that our optic nerves are like frayed cables, you know? Yes. It's just yes. Bits of wire missing and and things like that. Yeah. Yes.

15:40 S5

Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

15:42 S2

So so so the pair of you, you can see absolutely nothing. Or do you actually get flashes or anything like that? Absolutely nothing. Okay. No.

15:51 S5

Nothing.

15:52 S2

So are you a guide dog user like Lizzie is?

15:54 S5

I'm not, I'm not. I use a cane, I think. I don't I mean, you know, I think guide dogs can be really, really useful. But although I don't dislike dogs, I'm not afraid of dogs. I think you have to be a real dog person to have a guide dog, because you can't. Just the way I do, you You can't just put it in a corner of the room and leave it. You know you have to and then you wouldn't want to. I mean, you know, if you had a guide dog, you know, it's your companion. It goes with you everywhere. I think you'd have to really love. Well, I think you have to really love dogs to to do that. So, yeah, being not a particular pet person. And also, I like to be in control of my, of where I'm going. So, you know, using a cane makes me feel like I'm more in control, not Not necessarily more independent, but more in control. So no. 

16:37 S2

I don't know what that thing is, though. I've heard that there are real chick magnet, though.

16:41 S3

This is so true.

16:43 S5

Yeah, I look, I really don't know. You know, it's it's hot. I would hope in my dating life as in anything. And I'm sure you guys would agree that. I mean, yes, I'm sure they... can be. Yeah, I'm sure they can be. Yeah. You know, help, help attract... women. But, yeah, I'd like to think that I, you know, I people are like me or attracted to me in, if in fact, they are based on qualities that have nothing to do with my blindness. It's funny, you know, it's they find me, yeah, if they find me interesting or engaging, it's for other reasons, but but yes, that's if they do, they might not. I wouldn't want to assume anything.

17:22 S3

It's funny you should say that, actually, because an ex-girlfriend of mine met me specifically because of the dog. Like, it was raining in Salisbury station, and I was trying to get from the train to the bus, and she was more worried about the wet dog in distress than she was about me. But I had sparked some sort of connection. So dogs, I think, can be chick magnets.

17:44 S2

Yeah, I've always wanted to borrow one and just test that out myself.

17:48 S5

Wow, I don't know, I mean, maybe you could speak to someone at Seeing Eye Dogs, but I don't know how far you get. But yeah, no I do. They certainly are attention grabbing. And they I do know that, you know, if you're looking to date people or whatever, they can start there can be a good conversation starter.

18:05 S2

So as somebody who is queer, how do you think being blind actually affects meeting up with other people?

18:16 S5

It's tricky. So I guess, you know, as as a queer person, I probably a lot of the dating challenges that I face are probably similar to what many blind people face, you know, finding dating apps which are accessible. I get around that problem. I have a support worker who's also a friend who I trust, and so they help me, you know, with inaccessible apps and websites also, you know, explaining to them the importance of meeting in a place that I'm confident in or familiar with, or at least having someone take me to the place and, and then try and get me, you know, explain that I actually do need to do that for safety, as well as anything else, I guess. 

Also, when to tell someone that I'm blind, I generally choose to tell them, well, Floyd, meet my first date. But it is tricky because, you know, meeting people as not only a blind person, but a queer person. It's kind of, I mean, to minorities. And so, you know, I understand that to some people, being being blind might be a deal breaker. And I, you know, in the last couple of years, I have realized that I am asexual. I'm not am not a romantic, but I'm asexual - and primarily romantic, romantically attracted to women. But, you know, it's kind of a big disclosure because not only do I have to tell them I'm blind, I also have to find the right time to tell them that I'm asexual. And that can be tricky. 

And so I guess that's probably the big challenge, the kind of having to, you know, know when to to tell people both those things, whether it should be simultaneously or spread out. And, you know, it does... narrow the dating pool even further. I have to say. Well, I don't know. I have no evidence of this. Everyone I've told has been really, really lovely, but I'm quite sure that it does and would in its own way narrow things down a bit because, you know, people, you know, with the best will in the world, it just might not work for everyone. You know, there might be deal breakers for some people. And that's that's totally understandable. And I don't judge anyone for that. They're just not the right person. But yeah, it is, it can be tricky to know when to tell people things. That's probably the biggest challenge.

20:16 S3

I can imagine that because relationships, to some degree, for most people, come with a level of physical intimacy that if that's something that you're not comfortable with or something that you don't identify with. Yeah, that can definitely be tricky to to discuss that with people. You know, I guess.

20:35 S5

It's also I mean, like there are levels of these things and you know, I but yes, there are certainly some areas of, you know, of, that kind of intimacy that I, that I'm not comfortable with. And I have to make that very, very clear. And so that combined with being blind, it can be tricky. You know, it's, yeah. Just knowing when to tell people, finding the right person who isn't going to mind about, you know, my blindness or my sexuality. It can certainly be tricky.

21:04 S3

So you say that you've you've known that you you were lesbian for a long time, but when did you get the the first sort of initial inkling that that might be the case. I'll preface this by saying I'm I'm bisexual. And as a teenager, I had a fascination or such with the female species, I suppose. And it wasn't until years later that I accepted the fact that I had genuine attraction for other women as well as men. So what was your like, coming out experience?

21:39 S5

When I was in my I was probably like 11 or 12, you know, I'd always found, you know, like, you know, most of my life I recognised that women can be very, very beautiful and have very, very lovely voices. I read a book by Sue Hines called The Shadows about two teenage girls and one of them being being being a lesbian and how that felt. I guess I wondered at the time, and of course, I lived in a very small town and, you know, I was just, you know, just starting high school, you know, and I was figuring all this out. And so I didn't obviously say anything to, to so I spoke to a couple of my friends and I probably didn't, you know, just articulate it all very well, you know, it was, you know, but but yeah, for a while I kind of thought about it. 

And then for a while I thought I might be bisexual. I hadn't even got to the stage of contemplating asexuality. I had no idea that such a thing existed. So for, for years, you know, I tried to convince myself that I was bisexual. And then when I was 23, I thought that, you know, finally I hit upon it, that I was only attracted to women, that I was attracted to women in all, all sorts of ways. And that if only I met the right woman, then I would feel the kind, you know, all the attractions, not just, you know, romantic, emotional, intellectual, aesthetic, you know, all the, you know, if I just met the right woman and fell in love with the right woman, I would feel all the different types of attraction that you you think you're meant to feel. 

So, when I was 23, I was like, No, I'm not bisexual, I'm a lesbian. And I came out to my, you know, by that time I was living in Melbourne and I had a good group of friends. A couple of people that I, you know, that I was friends with, were a bit, you know, mainly I think just 1 or 2 were a bit... thrown by it, but most of my friends were 100% accepting. Embracing. And my family certainly were. You know, a couple of extended family. There were some difficulties, but all my immediate family were were amazing from the start. I'm very lucky in that way. And I'm quite sure that if I had told them as a teenager that I was interested in women, they probably would have been fine with it, too. I just didn't have the courage, I guess. 

And so for eight years, I identified as a lesbian. And, you know, I thought to myself, Yeah, I just have to meet the right woman and I'll feel all the types of attraction. And then about 18 months ago, I started to actually think, well, is this true? And is it not? And I had all sorts of reasons for... kind of questioning that. And I started reading up on asexuality. You know, I found a good book. I did some internet research, I talked to people, and I realised that I wasn't a lesbian. I was asexual and primarily romantically attracted to women.

24:20 S2

At a risk of asking a silly question - so feel free to give me a silly answer in response - can you give us a potted idea of what asexuality is? And oh, maybe, maybe I won't feel it that way. Maybe I'll say, what is it for you?

24:37 S5

So for me, so because there is a big spectrum, you know, there are there are people who are... demisexual so they can experience, I believe it's they experience sexual attraction only when there's a strong emotional connection. There's a big spectrum from people who, you know, who experience some a little amount of sexual attraction to a very, you know, just absolutely none at all, you know, and actually repulsed by the idea. So I am I basically the thing for me is that I experience, you know, I can find women and and and men to on occasions I can find them very beautiful. I can be, you know, very drawn to them, romantically, emotionally, intellectually, intellectually. 

You know, I can, you know, imagine what it would be like to go on dates with them, spend romantic time together, you know, be it, you know, cooking or watching movies or going on holidays. You know, I can imagine I can't imagine sharing a life with someone. But it doesn't matter how much I might leave it because, you know, it doesn't matter how much I might love someone romantically or how drawn I am to them, or how beautiful I find them. I just, I don't experience a sexual attraction to them. So, you know, everything else is fake. Except I just have no, no desire to. Yeah, I guess be no desire to have sex with them, be physically intimate with them.

And yeah, it really doesn't doesn't matter how much you know, it's not a measure of how much you love someone or how physically attractive you find them. You know, all those things are still experience and all those things are very, very, you know, very as with anyone, they vary according to, you know, who the person is. And, and, you know, like, I can fall in love with someone as much as anyone can, but I just I can't what I can't experience is that sexual attraction to them. And and that's a very wide spectrum of asexuality, as I've said. But that's basically what it is, what it is for me. 

26:35 S3

Well I think you can definitely be physically attracted to something without being sexually attracted. I mean, if you simplify it and you see a cute kid or a cute dog or a cute person or something, your first thought isn't automatically sexual. It's just that is a beautiful thing. That is a beautiful creature.

26:55 S5

And in the same way, you know, I mean, I would say for me, is it like, I can find someone beautiful without being physically attracted to them? I mean, that's that's the other thing. So there's a big difference between physical and sexual attraction. And that's something that a lot of people, they find it hard to distinguish between. I can find and I get also from a blind perspective, you know, people might, you know, might not understand that blind people can find people physically attractive, not by looking at them, obviously, but by factors like their voice, their perfume, the way they walk their hands, their water. Like it can be anything. It can be. It can be anything. 

For me, finding someone beautiful and being physically attracted to them are two very different things. But being I can be physically attracted, but to someone, to their voice, to whatever else. And I'm still unable to experience any, you know, any kind of sexual attraction. So I guess that's the main thing, isn't it? There's just a big difference between those two things.

27:47 S2

It's a it's funny sort of thinking about it because, I mean, we did a show at one stage talking about when people asked, you know, what can you see? And it's often very difficult to explain it because you don't know any different, really. Do you find that sort of similar as far as I don't know. I mean, I said only we know what we can see or what we can feel.

28:09 S5

Yeah, I I'm not, I guess, though, it's, I mean, I yeah, I can never experience the world view or anyone else's, you know, view perception. So, yeah, I guess, you know, all I know is what I can feel and hear and, you know, all. Yeah. The only thing I know is what all my all my senses that work picking up. So definitely, you know, I think it's all about our perceptions of things, I suppose.

28:35 S2

Talking about perceptions of things. Before we go, tell us about your book. 

28:41 S5

Oh. So it's yeah, it's a it's a queer romance. It's set in a country town... two women meet on a train and it gets delayed. And so they kind of bond and they end up in the same country town to... you know, quite a while, and, you know, six weeks and. Yeah, in the, you know, in the... process of getting together and getting their lives together, they, they end up supporting each other through a lot of, you know, emotional turmoil and family drama and kind of having just because they're both at a crossroads in their life. And so they have to really reevaluate where they are and what what they want the next, you know, one, five, ten year of their lives to be like, because, yeah, both of them are at kind of a standstill. 

And so they both have to, you know, sort of really work out for themselves. And, you know, with each other's help exactly what, what the next stage of their lives look like because they're basically they're on, you know, they're it's a stomach, you know, they're on a summer holiday to the country. So they're really it's like the phase between the next, you know, the this current stage and the next stage of their lives. So it's not very original. I'm sure many people have written it before, but... I'm hoping that it will, you know, the way I write it and my characters will be relatable. One of the characters is also blind. So we get the intersectionality of what did she blind and queer. And in fact, one of my characters is blind and asexual. So, you know, it's not my story. The character is not me. But I have put a lot of my experiences in it, and I hope that that will resonate with readers and that, yeah, that they'll want to read it, I guess.

30:11 S2

At what stage are you as far as the novel itself?

30:14 S5

I nearly finished the first draft, so I have about three chapters to write, and then I will have to get into the second draft. And I haven't thought about publishers or anything yet. I basically I just want to ride it out and I want to edit it and do some restructuring, and then I can start thinking about, you know, publishers to contact or whether I, in fact, go down the self-publishing road.

30:35 S3

Like, I can't wait to read that.

30:36 S5

And want to do?

30:37 S3

I can't wait to. Yeah, you like it?

30:39 S5

I really hope you like it, Lizzie. And I hope, as I say, that people will like it. Honestly, at this stage of my life, if I get 100 people to read it, you know, and like it, I'll be happy because it's just it's a real passion. I'm not doing this because I think it's going to, you know, be a bestseller. I'm doing it because it's a passion project. And, you know, I've never been happier than I am now when I'm actually writing it for the first time.

30:59 S3

Sometimes passion projects are the best projects. I reckon they are. They make you the happiest.

31:04 S2

Yeah, well, Tessa, we've really liked talking to you, so thank you. Thank you for joining us. This has been a lot of fun. And, well. Carry on.

31:15 S5

Thank you. Thank you very much.

31:20 S2

Okay. The next person talking to now, I thought I knew everything about Matt. He is... an old friend that I met in Perth. We did a radio course together and, well, two more different people you could not get. My faith in a divine anything is... well, I don't have any faith in a divine ever after or anything like that. And Matt is a qualified pastor, so he had an interesting story to tell, which I'd never heard. And it makes you realise sometimes that, well, times haven't changed as much as you think. What do you reckon, Lizzy?

32:05 S3

Well, the one interesting thing that I found about this interview is when he was talking about the way that, you know, his particular group of people were warning him off of of entering into a relationship. And then again, it just taps into those preconceived notions of vulnerability that society holds about people with a disability. You know, it's automatically assumed that because we are disabled, we are unable to make decisions for ourselves and think long term, and we are unable to to spot when people are trying to take advantage of us or not. And I just thought it was so interesting because I've also experienced a lot of this in my life.

32:46 S2

Yeah. So I think we leave it to Matthew to tell his story.

32:54 S6

Well, it's hard enough in the best of times to find somebody who loves you for who you are. And it's a difficult thing to, because finding somebody that has a similar faith to yourself in the vision impaired community can be a bit difficult. One person compromises or the other person compromises. And then it's I'm not saying that's not a bad thing, but if you have equal footing pretty much on the same thing of what you believe, regardless of his atheism or a faith of some sort, Islam or Christianity or Catholic or something like that, it seems to be more difficult. 

So but finding my now wife in the church that I was attending at the time, it's sort of like a foundation that you're making here. It's hard to say if you and your significant other have the same foundation or the same base, then you can build up from there. Whereas if you all want and someone else is something different, then I'm not saying there's not no fights or anything, but it's just you can get back to where you are, so to speak. I suppose that's the best way to do it. So let's.

34:06 S2

So let's... go back to when I first met you, which was, we're talking early 2000. I mean, you were the original blind bachelor. 

34:16 S6

Yes. One of them. One of them. One of the many, I suppose.

34:20 S2

What did you find was the biggest hurdle as far as talking to potential partners or people you might like.

34:28 S6

Not being able to see body language as much as I used to. When you have a vision, disability or low vision, or even if you're totally blind, even more so. It's the little things that you may not be able to pick up on, because you may interpret somebody as they may be waving at something or shooing a fly, or they're gesturing something. You may miss it because you can't see what they're doing. Yeah, it's just those little visual cues that when someone's using their body or in a certain way, you just may miss it. But when it comes to talking to, you know, I was just shy. 

I found it, like, even though a lot of people accepted me for who I was, I... the thing for a lot of ladies that I was friends with, I think they were they probably didn't know how to cope with a person with a visual disability as such, not knowing how they could best help me. And it may have been their families to the most. And I've got this guy that I'm interested in at church or wherever. He has a vision disability, and maybe their families had something to do with it. 

35:33 S2

I find sometimes the able bodied people sometimes don't think that we have the same urges and needs as... the normal people. Somehow we are like the Ken doll is like just a lump down there that, you know, is just this big bunch of plastic. And same with our emotions, you know, we just want people to look at us as as normal people or something like that.

35:57 S6

Yeah. Well, just. Yeah. Or just put the old friends out. Yeah. Just like, yeah, I'll go out with this person. I'll go out as a group together and all the people that are dating or, or thinking of dating or whatever will be in one section, and then all those that are don't quite fit the stereotypical able bodied or whatever, they can sit in another section. And that's part of the tour, I suppose.

36:24 S2

So I've been speaking to Simon Chong, and he says that the age of 59, he is now the eternal third wheel. I'm presuming in your young days you were that plus one when a whole bunch of other couples were around. 

36:39 S6

Yes. Unfortunately yes. It's not through lack of trying. As I said before, you may express interest in somebody, but it's it's just that, you know, like, I don't mind that he's he's just he's a like he's friends with everybody and he loves everybody. But yeah, she some... everybody wants at least something more. Well, most people want something more than just being that third wheel or whatnot, but those days are far behind both of us.

37:04 S2

So tell us about this wonderful woman you met.

37:10 S6

So 14 years ago, I moved up to Clarkston, and it wasn't for a couple of months after that, before I started going to the churches around my local area and eventually found a church that one of my other friends was going through at the time. Now he's not vision impaired or anything, but him and his wife and their two children were going to this church. So I decided on that particular church to go to, and it wasn't much after that. Then I met my now wife at this particular church.

37:37 S2

What was different about her? I mean, as you said, you had some... you had some bad luck in the past. So what was different this time?

37:44 S6

I think my heart was a bit more open. It was like a fresh start because when I moved up to where I am, I only knew a handful of people. So like the church that I was going to, as I said, I had his him and his wife and their two children, and there was about 3 or 4 other people in the church. I knew that it was. So basically, the church had a size of 5600 people and I only knew probably five. So like 1%. Basically 1% of the church I knew. So basically, there was a holy star. And why her? Well, that stage was going to church for a little bit. And then I got my guide dog Frankie around that time as well. So I think she was attracted to the dog personally, which happens to some people. 

38:29 S2

They are an icebreaker.

38:30 S6

You know, they're very much so. And, she asked me who I was and all the rest of it. And we were talking about this, that and the other and and it it was just just just a friend, just somebody else to add to my collection of people who I knew. And, yeah, as time went on, we got talking more. Then we went out for a cup of coffee and, things started to slowly happen and all the rest of it. But we, the church that we were attending at the time were not particularly pleased about our relationship, so...

S2

Oh, why was that? 

S6

To quote the church or the person that was leading up the section or the young adult section. Now, when I started dating Laura, my now wife, they were afraid that or that she would take advantage of my disability. There was no mine or hers. They thought that she was going to take advantage of me. And I'm I'm near 30, so about 34, 35. And, I'm like, okay, you're worried about me. I guess it's, but I'm 35 years of age. I'm sure I can make up my own mind if whom I want to start developing a relationship for and all the rest of it. But yes, they were concerned. 

But I feel like the... teenager who, when you're like, you got young and in love, they go like, Do you go out with that wild boy or that bad boy? He's going to treat you wrong and he's going to corrupt you and la la la. The rest of it. And they were worried at that stage that this is what she would do now. Like, sometimes you can't help who you fall in love with and but Laura and I, it was a slow burn and Laura had just been came off a couple of previous relationships that she was in. Maybe they were a little bit worried about her too, but I'm like, she's in her mid 20s. 

So because there's nine years between Laura and I, so she'll be hitting the big 40 this year and I'll be 49 in August and she'll be 14th September. So maybe they'll all be worried about the age gap. Maybe it'll be about the disability. But I'm like, she's 26. It was like 26. Um, 25, 26. Yes. She may have had bad relationships, but at the end of the day, this is who she chose. It's none of your beeswax, basically. And just leave us alone. And like, they keep pushing and pushing and pushing and going like, well, he's doing exactly what you, as I said before, people do with teenagers. It's like, dang, you stay with that young man or that young woman. They'll do this and this and it draw us closer together. 

And we ended up leaving the church because it's true, people like that, regardless if they have a disability or not. Why not? And and they, they sit us down. They try sitting us down and go like, well, let's work through this. And I'm going like at that stage we'd been dating for about six months. We changed our statuses on Facebook to, but in a relationship and like, you can't put that on Facebook because we haven't talked about it and we've got like. Yeah. So again, I get your concern. Not none of this like, this goes to pre-marital counseling classes or anything. Or let's talk about what this means for whatever. But what would happen if you have children, let's or what will happen with her work? Or will she be able to look after you, but none of that. It was just like I said, basically, we think that you should not see each other. Well, like. Well, no, it doesn't work that way.

41:56 S2

So you both got married and. Yeah.

41:59 S6

Yeah. To each other, I hope.

42:01 S2

And you, you have how many lovely children? Two.

42:06 S6

One of each.

42:07 S2

So life's changed a bit since I knew you back in the early 2000. Can you say what it is like now to be in a marriage? In a relationship?

42:21 S6

If you said to me when we first met that or whatever and said like, okay, in 23 years or so, 23, 24 years, you would be married, you have a house of your own, you would have a wife and two children. If you said to me, that's what, 23, 24 years ago, I'd probably go like, well, that would be lovely. 

42:42 S2

And do you feel lucky for the life that you're leading now?

42:45 S6

Yeah. Lucky. Blessed. Yeah, whatever you want to put that very much. But I got I got a wife who loves me and wants to look after me and make sure that I'm all right, okay? She's not one of those doting ones that would, like, drop anything and everything. Go. Okay, what do you need? And like a maid. She's not a maid. But we're partners, so we take responsibility to help raise our kids. Like, if, we're lucky enough that our son, who's, be ten this year. So he's just turned nine. Helps out quite a lot. So if I need something or help to find something, more often than not, I'll go, like well, have you seen dad's cane? Have you seen dad's yellow hat? Or have you seen something? And people go like, oh, so. 

But of course, being [? knighted] now is. It feels like sometimes there's a bit of a job looking after the person with a disabilities. But again, I don't want him to be labelled with everything. And I'm not saying you must find my cane, otherwise I'm going to get angry with him because there's certainly others, plenty of other things to get angry and upset about. But I wanted to, I suppose, help appreciate the fact that helping people is a good thing to do, regardless of our disability or not.

43:57 S2

Today is Valentine's Day. Do you have any plans for tonight? 

44:01 S6

Oh, let's see, tonight... well, at the moment, I'll probably try to get the kids to bed early and probably order something in his menu log. And... or a nice romantic date or something. My lovely wife choose what she wants. I think she wants to have McDonald's. Then it would be a lovely, romantic dinner with McDonald's at home, I suppose, or whatever. And, let me just curl up and watch a bit of mash watching... the TV series MASH at the moment. So not the let's watch a bit of MASH and then went off to bed and see what happens after that.

44:33 S2

Matthew, thank you for giving us a bit of your time. I've learnt a few things that I didn't know before and it made me sort of, I don't know, look at you slightly differently in a really positive way. So thank you for that.

44:43 S6

No worries at all, Sam.

44:49 S2

And that was Matthew Spencer. So the last person we chatted to was Sara Evans, our expert of the week, as it were, and she said, well, she's not an expert, which well, I don't know, what do you what do you think? She sounded like she knew what she was talking about.

45:07 S3

Yeah, I think she's an expert. She knows what she's talking about. She can... inform us all.

45:13 S2

Well, yeah. The other interesting thing, of course, is, apart from Simon, everyone else we were talking to was sort of happy in their place nowadays. So both of us are sort of in stable relationships. We're sort of at the end of the whole dating thing. Well, in theory anyway. So what happened? Sara, of course, is after a I think it was 11 year marriage, she got wise to things and decided to get herself out of that. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't really want to go back into the singles lifestyle.

45:49 S3

Never? Never? Absolutely no way. Especially although knowing what I know now from listening to what she had to say, I suppose I could. But you know, if I had to go back into the dating world with the knowledge that I had prior to that. Yeah. Definitely not.

46:06 S2

Yeah, well, it's all a lot more user friendly now. There's an app for that apparently. Or social media, but. Well, we'll let Sarah explain more.

46:18 S7

Ah, yeah. Thanks, Sam. I am a quality living coordinator, so my role at Vision Australia is to support clients to come to, like, support groups over the phone or in person. And we discuss our lived experience with vision loss. So some of our clients are new to vision loss, and they're kind of learning the ropes. But we also support people with long term vision loss to to share their stories and support each other.

46:42 S2

My best friend back in Darwin at one stage... set when I was sitting down with a beer and he said, I've been told that I've got really bad social skills. And I said, really? And yes, he did. And so people like you are absolutely vital, I think because like it or lump it, we as a community do have shocking social skills at the best of times because we can't see people's reaction. Is there anything you can do about that?

47:14 S7

Yeah. Well, most of our programmes are over the phone, so the visual cues and things aren't relevant. So it puts everyone on an even playing field there. We are not structured in... social skills per se, but we do encourage people to kind of open up. We explore feelings and we kind of get people to explain... their situation. So we do kind of encourage people to talk about it. But I applaud your friend for his self-awareness. That's amazing.

47:44 S2

What sort of groups do you have? Are there specific sort of, types of groups that you're dealing with?

47:50 S7

Yeah, sure. So we support clients, from age 18 all the way through. So we kind of try and group people by life stage range or lifestyle range. So we'll have like a younger person's group so people, you know, exiting school wanting to do uni, maybe re-entering the workforce, interested in dating and relationships. Then we have a kind of middle age client group, which is, you know, maybe people in relationships married, maybe they have kids, maybe they're currently employed in their jobs, are in jeopardy because of the vision loss. Or, you know, they might even have grandkids at that stage. 

And then we go to the older clients. So, you know, they're in retirement, they're wanting to enjoy their retirement and their vision loss has impacted their ability to sit there and do the crafts that they've always wanted to do or drive the the car that they've been saving up the whole life. And so we come together and discuss things as a group. We also have some kind of specialty groups we do have, and your listeners may be interested, and a total blind client group, just specifically to support, um, people with no vision. Because we do find that sometimes their needs are a little bit different to, you know, the partials. So, that's a really cool thing. We also offer groups for visually impaired parents. Which is how I came to the program myself. And employed clients at this, a range of different groups.

49:13 S2

So to get this straight, the structure, I'm guessing, is not you, Sarah, the guru telling people how to do. No, it's actually people talking together and nutting this stuff out together.

49:23 S7

Absolutely. So what I do is I create that safe place. So I give some guidelines around, you know, conduct and behavior, you know, how are we going to interact with each other? We're not providing advice to each other. We're going to make suggestions or we're going to share our own experience. So the first week we come together and I'll capture the challenges of that group of people. What what are the challenges that vision losses,  creating in your life or things you'd like to know to address? And then I'll kind of put a structure in place for the upcoming weeks and the topics we're going to talk about based on the client's needs. 

And so I'm just there to facilitate, to stay on topic, to make sure everyone's happy and sharing, make sure that, you know, some person doesn't kind of take over or everyone gets an opportunity to speak. So that's basically my role. We also have a PR, so that's someone from the low vision community who's previously been involved in one of these groups who is kind of the role model, um, that people can ask questions to. It's like, Oh, you use a computer. How how do you how do blind people use computers? And they can share their lived experience with vision loss as well for our clients.

50:26 S2

So let's hear a little bit more about you, however. So you have a vision impairment. What is your eye condition?

50:32 S7

Yeah. So I was diagnosed with {?stargardt's or] macular when I was five. So, you know, you run through all the gauntlets of testing and eye drops and, you know, a bit traumatic when you're a little kid. I didn't feel comfortable identifying as someone with a vision impairment for most of my life. So I just tried to fit in, with everyone. And so, you know, people would make comments like, Oh, why can't you see that? It's like, Oh, well, I'm blind. And but, you know, especially as a teenager, your ego gets in the way and you don't want to stand out. You just want to blend in. 

And it wasn't until my, you know, I went to uni, I got married, had some kids, and then my kids started school and I was involved in a different social scene. People that didn't know me, people that didn't know my history, and I didn't know how to let them know that there's a reason I'm a little bit awkward. And so that started my journey into, I call it my coming out story. Coming out as vision impaired, and I got my first white cane, and that's what brought me to Vision Australia and the parents groups and the support groups and I joined the community. 

51:37 S2

I guess that's rather apt, because we've been talking to people who have had to literally come out, and it's amazing how similar the stories they tell are actually to what it is like to, I don't know, face having a disability because I think we've all had, especially if we have a vision impairment as opposed to total blindness, because I think total blindness, you can't really avoid... appearing disabled. But I think we've all tried to blend in and all come to that stage where we go, Oh, I have a disability. Oh well.

52:16 S7

And it's different for everyone.

52:18 S2

Yeah, it is, it is. But let's move on slightly to the topic of this week's episode. So as I said at the introduction to your interview, so myself and Lizzie are both married and we've done the whole singles scene and sort of, well, I don't really fancy going back to it, but you've kind of had to go back to it, haven't you? Yes.

52:48 S7

Indeed. Uh, and that was part of my visionless journey, because as I regained my confidence, self esteem and independence, I'm like, What am I putting up with this? So yeah, they're kind of coincide. It's definitely a whole new world. In the last, I don't know, 15 years since I was dating.

53:06 S2

That's the thing I've been picking up. In some ways, I think it's actually, it sounds like it's slightly easier for this current generation of singles to meet people because you've got these wonderful apps and things like that with their... safeguards and stuff like that, as opposed to me, who is, in the late 80s and 90s going to... nightclubs where I could barely see what was going on because everyone was smoking and couldn't hear what was going on because of the loud music. And surprisingly enough, no, I never picked up.

53:41 S7

Yeah. It's challenging. Yeah.

53:43 S2

Are are things easier nowadays?

53:46 S7

I think. Oh, it's so hard. Everything has its pros and cons, right. So there's benefits and challenges to each. So online dating is really, really good because you're connected to like so many more people. And generally they're all there for the same reason. Like you generally don't join a dating app if you're not interested in dating. To say that there are like married people in there. There are some, you know, people who are just wanting to hook up and so that you've got to kind of filter through that, but then you don't know if they're interested in you. 

So if you're out and about, someone approaches you, then you know that, oh, they're interested in me. So in some ways it's easier. And in some ways it's harder because I do know people who will take me back and forward for two years and be like, oh my God, this is my soulmate. And you're like, you've never met them in person. How do you have that's not a real relationship. So be careful of those kind of traps. Online dating, being.

54:37 S2

Online dating, being blind and vision impaired would be a lot easier to sort of fall into that trap, I would expect, because, you know, some some of our best work is done over the phone.

54:45 S7

Yeah, absolutely. And you don't actually have to disclose either over the phone. You can just be a person. So there's comfort in that.

54:54 S2

I can usually get away with not appearing disabled, as it were. Only people who are experts in the field, as it were. So mobility instructors, special education teachers, parents of people with a vision impairment, they can pick it straight away that I am vision impaired. But normal people in inverted commas can't. How do you go as far as that goes?

55:15 S7

Yeah, that's a really good. So I do identify as visually impaired. I do use a cane, but on my dating profiles, I will not disclose. Now, this is a very, very personal thing that's, you know, I know some people do and they want it straight out there and they use it to kind of filter. They can say filter the assholes. So if anyone's going to be like, I'm not going to date them, then it filters them out for myself. I want to be the narrator of my Visional story, and I want control of that, so I'm not letting them make up their own opinion of me, before I've met them. So for me personally, it's not in my profile. 

I'll have a chat, we'll connect. We'll talk about our interests as people. Like, what are we interested in? People? I will have a phone call like, let's meet up for coffee. We've arranged to meet up. I have a phone call. Do I like the sound of his voice? Does he sound kind? And then in that phone call, I'll say, Look, I have a medical issue, and I can't drive. Do you mind if we meet up? You know, like, at this coffee shop. And I kind of control the narrative a little bit there to make it easier for me, I might say Oh, look, I can't see very well. I might have to have a stick. Just look out for the lady with the stick. I might not not see you. And I haven't had one rejection yet, over the phone. Most guys, because you kind of build up that rapport they're eager to meet.

56:34 S2

Sounds almost like you're going for a job, doesn't it?

56:37 S7

So true. Oh my gosh, it's so true. It is because you're vetting and you're vetting them just as much as they're vetting you. I want to know, is this person compatible with my lifestyle? Because I know what I'm looking for. I'm not letting anyone into my life because, you know, there's there's there are there's you got to filter through a lot. And in my experience, the guys that I have been on dates with, I really thought the vision was going to be an issue because I haven't dated. As someone who identifies as blind before, this is new for me. So I really thought that was going to be an issue and no one's going to want to date me. 

And but no, I went on a date with one guy. He's like, Oh, work in aged care. Like I deal with people with vision loss all the time. One guy went on a date with, we're having coffee. He was like, I used to be a principal at a blind school. I'm like, what? So he's like, it's nothing for me. So I put a lot of restrictions on myself that I didn't need to.

57:28 S2

Have you had people who are sort of cautious because they feel like they might be, I don't know, taking advantage or something like that, because that's been something that we've heard. I don't know if you listen to our show with Matt, for example.

57:43 S7

Fantastic.

57:43 S2

Yes, yes. So have you encountered anything like that yourself? 

57:48 S7

I'm pretty confident in my ability to, let's say, spot a bullshitter. I have an ability to be quite discerning, so I do trust myself in that. I do know other clients because I also ran a tele link program for people interested in dating. That that was an issue for them. And I have heard one lady actually took her support worker on the date because she was a totally blind individual, and the support worker was like, That's not the guy in the profile. He's catfishing you, so it can absolutely happen. It's good to have strategies in place to to deal with those kind of kind of things.

58:23 S2

Before we go... and by the way, it has been fantastic talking to you, I've really enjoyed this. Before I go, you have some good guidelines on how people like us can actually navigate the dating world, and we're out on a date with someone we like or whatever. So what are those rules?

58:44 S7

Yeah, so well, I like that they've said rules, but it's more just like tips, I guess, in that, you know, confidence is key. And this is one thing I've talked about with a lot of people, you know, there are so many celebrities out there with vision loss, but people are still going to date them because they're a celebrity, right? So the celebrity status trumps the vision loss. So if you think of it from that mindset, get your confidence up, be a confident person. Get your skills up so you're not worried about, Oh, I'm so embarrassed, I like, knocked over that glass or I did that, like, sometimes it's going to happen. But even sighted people knock over glasses. 

So get your confidence up and just you as a person are your interests. I do here with a lot of dog users that, you know, people want to talk about the dog and it's like, Okay, yep, here's the yeah, but we're here to talk. And so redirect that conversation back to you. So confidence in yourself and your abilities to move through life, especially I did here last week. And then the other, the other episode where people want to, like, over coddle you and stuff, and so you can demonstrate your abilities.

59:48 S2

That does seem to be this is what I've encountered myself when I was dating, is that some women have a bit of a fear that there are needy men out there, and if you've got a disability, you're going to be even more needy. And I sort of have tried to put the kibosh on that myself. So, yeah, I can sort of identify with that there. I mean, we are as independent as we want to be, but yeah, that that does ring a lot of bells. Any other tips?

1:00:16 S7

So we have another one here. Apps and online dating. Although I did hear recently that they're on the decline. So people are tending to use social media to meet now, so be mindful of that. But... you can do it yourself, most a lot of the apps are accessible. There is a new app that is no pictures only. So anyone who's going on that app once is very interested in meeting people. They had a lot of following overseas and like Germany and the EU, but Australia is still getting traction. So that's another alternative to get on something like that, where you're with other people who don't value visual input as much. 

And then if you are like trying to go through pictures and look at look at pictures like you're like, Ah, I'm looking for someone like this, you can have a sighted colleague. I'm a big advocate of having visual interpreters, just as the hearing impaired community have, you know, interpreters have someone who can visually articulate or, you know, seeing eye, hat you're looking at and make sure you're very clear about the filter you want to look through, not the filter that other person is looking through. So. Oh, he's really cute. He's this. This. Yeah. But like, what color is his hair? What? Like, what hairstyle is it? What clothes are his? What clothes is he wearing? Like? Get that for you. Not through their filter.

1:01:29 S2

It does. It sounds like you're going for a job. It does. It's all you know. Do your research. Try to present. Well, be confident, know your stuff. Well, to me. To me, as a married guy that's, not been on the singles scene now for 25 years. It is truly interesting. I hope I never have to use your advice, but thank you very much for talking to us this afternoon.

1:01:56 S7

My absolute pleasure and happy dating for those that are.

1:02:00 S2

And that is a wrap for this special Studio One podcast presentation. Hopefully we'll be doing another one of these specials in the near future. If you do have any ideas on what you think we should be covering for an hour long show, please email us studio one at Vision Australia. Org, that's studio number one at Vision Australia. Org. You never know. Your story and insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar. Is there any other way they can get in touch with us?

1:02:30 S3

Lizzie, of course they can get in touch with us through all this good social media platforms like Facebook and Instagram, and it just simply search for Vision Australia radio and you'll find us.

1:02:42 S2

But until next time, do please join us on our regular podcast and we'll see you around the traps.

1:02:50 S3

Bye bye for now.

1:02:51 S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.