Molly and Maple

00:06 S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

00:16 S2

Hello, I'm Lizzie...

S3

and I'm Sam. 

S2

And you're listening to Studio 1, Vision Australia Radio's weekly look at life from a blind and low vision perspective.

00:25 S3

On this week's show...

00:26 S2

We talk to Annette Holden and Barbie Robinson about the release of their upcoming book, "Molly and Maple - the Guide Dogs that changed Nettie's world".

00:35 S3

As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show if you're having any experiences of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1. You never know - your story and insight may help somebody else who is going through something similar.

00:47 S2

You can contact us via email at studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org. Or perhaps you can drop us a note on our Facebook. Just go to facebook.com slash VA Radio Network.

01:13 S3

Hello, Lizzie.

01:14 S2

Hello, Sam. How are we today?

01:16 S3

We are warmish, but very warm. What is interesting is, we did a 35 minute interview and you edited it.

01:26 S2

I did, I actually got it down to a reasonable length of time.

01:30 S3

You're starting to enjoy this, aren't you?

01:32 S2

I'm really starting to enjoy it. In fact, I kind of hope that you give me more work to do.

01:37 S3

Well, in some ways, I think you did rather too good a job, because since we're here chatting away to each other, dear listener, the radio show has to go for 28 minutes. Sometimes it goes for a little bit shorter, sometimes it goes for a bit, a little bit longer. But otherwise, yes, we will end up.... I know I'm cheating here a little bit...  but we'll end up playing a lot of music. So at a risk of me bringing out my...

02:02 S2

Latvian folk music...

02:03 S3

Music. Folk music again. Yes. So it's just easier for us to chat about what's going on. What in particular do you like about the whole editing process?

02:12 S2

I like a lot of it, actually, but one of the biggest things that I really enjoy is being able to go back over the interview and just listening to the message within or, you know, what was said and how it was said. And I found that the ladies that we interviewed had very nice voices, and I just found myself really captivated, not just by what they said, but how they said it. So I really enjoy just going in and listening to the cadence of how people talk and their intonation and, you know, also playing around with it a little bit, taking out gaps and, you know, all the ums and ahs that you you won't need to hear because I've taken it all out.

02:51 S3

It is amazing how people... yeah, the way that people find ways to waste time in a way, as they think of what the hell to say next.

03:01 S2

I don't know if it's wasting time in the case of this interview, because they're very intelligent ladies. I think it was more of a case of just trying to find the right words to say. And oh, I learnt two new words during this interview, Sam. Two new words. Do you want to know what they are?

03:17 S3

Ah, yes. Okay.

03:18 S2

Ebullient, right - which means overly cheerful, vivacious or vigorous in spirit. And the other one I learned is vicissitudes.

03:28 S3

Right.

03:28 S2

Which is... trials and tribulations that one goes through in life. So very interesting words. Thank you Barbie, you've expanded my vocabulary and I'm very, very grateful to you for that.

03:40 S3

Well, so yes, we've all learned and I hope, dear listener, you enjoy the interview as much as we enjoyed taping the thing, and as much as Lizzie enjoyed editing it.

03:53 S2

Over to Annette and Barbie. I am joined in the studio today by two very special guests with me in the studio. I have Annette Holden and Barbie Robinson. Welcome to you both.

04:15 S4

Thank you. Lucy. Thank you.

04:16 S2

We are here to talk about your book. Well, the book that you are the subject of. Could you tell us about your experiences with vision loss and how did it shape your perspective on life?

04:27 S4

I've always had poor eyesight, Lizzie, but I've lost it almost completely in the past decade or so. A combination of genetic factors and cerebral palsy, which was all a traumatic shock and something I never imagined. So it's had a really profound effect on my life, and I really had to reinvent my world around me to be able to find meaning and purpose. And that's really what the book is about.

04:50 S2

So you say reinvent your life. Talk us through about a bit of what you were doing before you experienced the major vision loss. Could you drive, or what were you... what was your employment?

04:58 S4

I was a journalist and a public relations consultant and worked in government. I love driving fast cars and I loved reading. and it was grief stricken. I felt that everything had been taken away, but of course I now know it wasn't. And that's again the purpose of the book to tell the world that when things happen that are out of our control and we're not expecting, it doesn't mean that life's over, that there are really good and positive things ahead still, and all we need are opportunities and education.

05:25 S2

Could you describe for us the process of getting Molly and Maple and how did they transform your life?

05:31 S4

I first reached out to see differently before I was actually diagnosed as being legally blind, but I knew that I couldn't see, so I actually gave up driving of my own accord. I knew I couldn't see well enough to drive, and I was having terrible falls, breaking bones, and just wasn't able to manage my everyday life. I started off using everyday appliances that the sea differently offers to people with poor vision or low vision, and then moved on from there with a diagnosis. And ultimately it went from 10% to 2% sight within a year. And I was offered then the opportunity to learn to use a cane with a mobility instructor, which was absolutely transformative. 

I will never forget that feeling of walking through the city using my forefinger as my eyes. Actually being able to see the world again in a different way. So when it was apparent that I needed more help, including the psychological support of a four pawed friend, I was thrilled to be offered the opportunity to train with the instructors and get my first guide dog, Molly.

06:29 S2

When did you get Molly?

06:30 S4

I think it was in 2014, somewhere around then. She was two and a half years old and she's now going on for 12.5, but she's been retired for a while.

06:40 S2

Do you still have her?

06:41 S4

Yes, I do. She's my beautiful pet and absolutely loves being retired and part of the family and spoilt and having lots of holidays and just being really indulged. All those things that guide dogs don't normally have open to them.

06:55 S2

I have retired Lacie very recently, and I feel like I've spent my whole life with Lacie as my guide. So it's good to know that even when I get another dog, we can still bond and have amazing experiences together.

07:07 S4

Oh, I can assure you you will. I remember crying because I couldn't imagine ever loving another guy dog the way I love Molly and both trainers at See Differently said to me, Everybody says that the first time they have to retire a dog, but we promise you you'll form the bond with the new one and so will your retired dog. And you'll be a big, happy family. And it's so true.

07:27 S2

So when did you get Maple? She's a new addition to your family, and she's joining us in the studio today. 

07:33 S4

Yes. Maple was actually quite young when we trained together. She and her brother were intellectually quite advanced and were disrupting the rest of the class because they were bored. She's just turned four years old, and I've had her for two and a half years, and she's similar in many ways to Molly, but she also has her own unique personality and they both gang up on me. I'm very much outfoxed by both of them. 

07:54 S2

Yeah, well, having seen her and interacted with her for just a few minutes, I can imagine that she would have been ahead of the class.

08:00 S4

She's the brains in the in the family. Molly's the brawn... and I'm the fall guy.

08:05 S2

Right. So can you share any particular memory or story of Molly and Maple that demonstrates their impact on your life?

08:14 S4

Both of them have opened the world to me. Particularly. Attending theatre, music and opera and theatre are the absolute joys of my life now that I can't read for pleasure, because I really need to conserve that energy for things I need to be able to read, to manage. I have 2% sight, so I can see very close up. Still, having them means I can go out safely and feel confident and feel safe and find my way around other cities too. They both have flown many, many times for me interstate. They charm everyone everywhere they go and they open so many doors that would otherwise not be available. Almost everyone loves our Labradors.

08:51 S2

How have you managed to turn the challenges associated with vision loss into a source of strength and positivity?

08:58 S4

I really struggled when I first lost my sight, particularly the circumstances in which I found myself not in my career anymore and my identity had been mistakenly been wrapped in my career, which I would never recommend to anyone. But it was a real trauma when I had to reinvent myself, and I used that word quite deliberately. I started off through volunteering and using the skills I'd learnt in the workforce, and learning new ones to undertake all sorts of work as an advocate and an activist and anything really to make the world better for anyone living with a disability. 

But also that makes it so much better for anyone at all. When life is made easier for someone with a disability, it improves it for absolutely everyone. I've found so much joy and meaning and purpose through the work that I do. As an advocate and an inclusion and equity facilitator. It's opened so many opportunities to me and given me a life that I never expected, and I'm so glad to be involved in.

09:52 S2

What message would you like to impart with the people who read this book, or people who are faced with similar challenges.

09:59 S4

That bad things happen to pretty well everyone at some point in our lives? I don't think any one of us gets through everything unscathed and that we need to be adaptable and strong in ourselves. The most important thing of all to remember that I've learnt is that there is always still hope, and that although life will be different and it will be challenging and difficult sometimes and exhausting, it will also be amazing and brilliant. If we open our hearts to new opportunities and a new way of living, especially to our friends and family, to welcome them in and not push them away, to accept help, to accept we have changed. And with our village surrounding us, we can be an even better version of ourselves.

10:39 S2

That is such a positive message, and such a message that I think a lot of people can relate to - not just in terms of vision loss, but also people going through other traumatic situations, no matter what it might be.

10:50 S4

Thank you Lizzie.

10:55 S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

11:03 S2

Barbie, I have some questions for you. What inspired you to write a book telling Annette's story?

11:10 S5

Annette and I have been friends for decades, and as her life has changed with the loss of her sight, she has often just incidentally told me about things that have happened that I have thought were appalling. So, for example, taxi drivers who have refused to take her because they didn't want a dog in the car. A taxi driver who drove her off the back of beyond somewhere and just left her there. Airlines who've created difficulties when Maple or Molly were travelling with her. And each time I've heard these stories, it isn't that Annette has been whingeing - she's just been telling me about the things that have happened to her in life. 

And it occurred to me that many people in our society simply have no idea that such things would happen. Many people would be astounded and appalled as I was, but that if we don't tell people about these things, if we don't speak out, then they will never change. And so one of the purposes of the book, and it's deliberately a picture book, is to teach children from a very young age and all the people who read with them that there is a difference between right and wrong, and that when we see something wrong happening, we need to speak out that as in everyone's life, not everything goes well, but the way we respond is what matters. That there is hope in the darkness and that each person has the capacity to bring about change. It's the power of one. 

And the picture book is such a powerful tool for doing this. And as this is now my fourth picture book, all of which had messages, I thought, I hope Annette will let me write this story. And then about the joy of the dogs, the way that life is made better sometimes by new friends coming into your life, whether they be four legged or other. And much to my delight, Annette agreed that I could write the story. She thought it was just going to be about the dogs. But of course, how could I write the story about the dogs? Because the dogs are Annette's story. 

So that's what I did. I wrote down the words. I checked all of the manuscript with the net to make sure that everything was right, and once she'd approved it all, I then found my artist, Sara Phemister, and she spent four months doing the paintings based on the manuscript. But of course, it's not just a transliteration of my words, it's her own visual story as well. Told so beautifully and sensitively by this wonderful artist from Yass in New South Wales. And then I did... the layout and design, went through the self-publishing process because Big Publishing wasn't interested in the book. Then, after the miracle of storms at sea and delays, the boat finally got into Melbourne Harbour with our thousand books, which we now have between us.

13:42 S2

How did you approach telling Annette's story in a way that was both authentic and inspiring?

13:49 S5

I think I simply stuck to the truth. I listed off little incidents that happened. I talked about how Annette had lost her sight, and that she could still see through a little narrow tunnel. So trying to make visuals for people, listening to the story of what the experience felt like, and we talked about the bad things, but then we talked about the good things, the beautiful dogs coming in. So I really just had to stick to the truth of in its story to make it extremely moving. The courage of resilience is important to all of us and to children, especially, who need to learn that things will go wrong and that resilience is needed in life. 

And so I didn't really have to do anything very much except put into my own words the things that Annette had told me about what was happening to her. And I guess putting them into an order that made a good story. So I guess that's the simple thing. It's a story of the truth when it's not so nice and the truth when it's lovely. And I think that's all you need in this story. One of the children we were reading to last week at Yass Primary School, when we finished reading, the little boy in the front row said, That's a good story. And I thought if this were a world where I was allowed to go and hug children, which you're not, of course I would have gone over and given him a big hug.

14:56 S2

Well, if kids love it, you know, it's good.

14:58 S5

Yeah, yeah.

14:59 S5

Lizzie, it also has a really strong first sentence that it's very powerful.

15:04 S5

Losing her sight wasn't the worst thing for Nettie. The worst thing was that people started to think differently about her. Some people even seem to think less of her. 

S2

It's the crux of the story, isn't it? 

S5

Yes.

15:15 S2

How did you find Sara Phemister to illustrate your book?

15:19 S5

I'd known Sara and her work from visiting a wonderful regional gallery called Tyger Gallery in Yass, and her work immediately appealed to me. She paints in oils, a bit of a sort of Margaret Olley feel to it, and I loved her work when I first saw it, and I met Sarah time and time again at the gallery when we were there interviewing, and I thought, she's the one I need. Because I knew also that she has a muse in the form of a very, very large, ebullient black Labrador, much larger than Maple. And I thought, if anyone knows how to paint Labradors and who will understand this story about the love between Annette, Molly and Maple, it's Sarah. 

And I asked her if she'd do it, and she agreed with alacrity and worked over four months painting the work and coming backwards and forwards to me and saying, Is this okay? Is this what you wanted? And every time I thought, Oh, it's perfect. She's just absolutely, perfectly found what my words were on about. And I was so thrilled.

16:17 S2

So what qualities were you looking for to bring Annette's story to life visually?

16:21 S5

I was looking for the capacity to express emotion in pictures so that someone who can't read or can't read English could look at the pictures and know what was going on in them. So we have the picture of Annette, for example, with the taxi driving off away, and she's standing there in the midst of nowhere, looking a bit puzzled. I wanted people to be able to read emotion and to interpret story just from the pictures, even if they couldn't read the words. And the warmth of them, I suppose, was the other important thing for me, and the fact that they're representational art. It's not digital art and it's not comic-looking.

16:56 S2

Could you describe the collaborative process between you, Sara and Annette?

17:01 S5

Yes, it was very much that Annette sent me some photographs to use as reference material because Sara hadn't met Annette or the dogs when she started work. She'd only read my story. She'd heard me talking about Annette, and she is a very sensitive soul, and she got it. So I began with the words. Annette made sure my words were right. I shared the words with Sara. She started work on the pictures and came back and forth with them. I would send Annette now and again a photograph of a progress piece, and each time both Annette and I would gush and exclaim, Oh yes, it's lovely! Oh yes! Anyway... and then Sara continued with the work. It wasn't until very recently that either Sara or Annette had seen the book when we did the events together for the first set of launches last week in Canberra.

17:46 S4

It was actually last week that I saw it in its entirety. Yeah.

17:49 S5

And so the book is a product. The process was really important of making this story together and then creating the book together. So it is very much our book. I don't see it as just my book. It's my book. It's Sarah's book. It's and it's book. It's Richard, my husband's book, because we've all worked to make it come into the world, and now we'll be working for quite a while to get all those babies into bookshops and homes and schools.

18:12 S2

Were there any specific details or moments in Annette's life that you wanted to capture in the story?

18:20 S5

I did want to capture the sight loss and how that felt, because for someone who'd always been sighted and had worked in a profession where she was using words and typing and all of that sort of thing, the effect was profound and was something I wanted to communicate to people. I also wanted to talk about that taxi driver incident because it was one that particularly shocked me. We often talk about women and safety in the media these days, though of course it's a fairly recent thing for that to happen. And someone said to me, well, any woman that that happened to would be so frightened just to be taken by a driver out the back of beyond. 

But in addition to that, to not be sighted and not know where you are and not really know how to find your way back to somewhere, must have been so terrifying. But of course, Annette being who she is, she found some help from someone. She got back, and then she reported the person. And it's so important that that message of we don't take things lying down. That's a repeated line in the book. Nettie wasn't the type to take that lying down or things lying down. She's not a weak, little feeble creature. Something happens that's wrong. She speaks out about it. 

So that was important to me that that message got across to kids as well. If you see something wrong, don't be complicit. Don't be a bystander in the wrongdoing. Say something. Offer some help to the person who's being badly treated. I think primarily it's the resilience message. I write a lot about intimacy and loss in my work, and I think this book does fall into that category. The idea that we are wedded to something, to a lifestyle, or we love a person, we love our job. But loss can happen at any time and that we must respond. Though it takes a lot of courage, sometimes a lot of desperation, we must respond well to it. We must not take things lying down and we must not curl up in a heap. It's important to be resilient, to be courageous. To have strength, and to call on the people who love you, to be part of that change. 

I'm not going to call it a recovery because it's not recovery. It's adjusting and adapting to the vicissitudes of life. The vicissitudes of life will come to everyone. I can't imagine anyone getting off scot free, and neither should we. It's something that helps us to grow, to be better, to be stronger, and to be more lovely. When we face things that are difficult, that's really important for children and for all of us, for grown ups as well.

20:34 S2

It's interesting that you say that, because we did a series of shows not long ago, speaking to some people that had experienced quite severe and dramatic vision loss later in life, and these were people with established careers, or in one case, she was studying to become a lawyer, and they all said the same thing - that you can never give up hope and not to look on it as a catastrophe, but rather a catalyst for change.

20:59 S4

Absolutely, Lizzie. And that's and it's at the time, it's very hard to do to see hope and not intended. But it's so true that and I guess that's my message that I'd like to get through from the book, that there is always hope. Things might seem so bleak, but I promise you, there is such wonderful life ahead. Different. Totally unexpected and quite shocking, really, but still incredible. And as long as we're open to opportunities and are able to accept the change in circumstances, and that's probably the hardest thing initially to accept and not think, well, why? Which, you know, it's a natural reaction, why it's really important to be able to move on from that point and find a new purpose for ourselves.

21:37 S2

What was it like working together on this project, and did you discover new things about each other along the way?

21:43 S4

I learned today that Barbie's very, very good at cryptic crosswords - and I had no idea about that. We've been friends for a very long time. I've absolutely been blown away by her patience and her determination and diligence to spend so many hours going over each word and editing and redesigning and checking. I always thought she was brilliant. Now I know.

22:05 S2

So you say your friendship started decades ago, which I picked up on Barbie when you were speaking. Tell us about where that started?

22:12 S5

Annette, that's your story.

22:13 S4

Yeah. Richard, Barbie's husband was my first boss when I moved to Canberra in the public service, after I left the ABC. And I used to babysit for Barbie and Richard. But I used to love being there with the children, but also playing their beautiful piano. So it was a win-win situation.

22:27 S2

Lovely. Amazing. That is super cool. I didn't know that you knew each other before writing the book, so that sort of adds another element of interest.

22:35 S5

And I think that's important because just as when you're taking someone's photograph, it's a relationship to write a book which is factual, and everything I write has some element of fact in it. But this is the first one that has been what we might describe as a non-fiction story. There have been little details changed. For example, the picture of the dog in the pilot's cap. We refer to it as Molly, but it was actually Maple in the reference material, so little tiny details are not strictly true to fact, but it's mostly a true story. And I think in that case it is about a relationship. So the photographer who takes a good portrait has a relationship with the subject. And the chronicler, as I am in this case has a relationship with the subject. It has to be a respectful relationship because it's not my story, it's a knit story. 

23:20 S2

Well, you've heard it first here on Studio 1, ladies and gentlemen - it was Maple in the pilot's cap. I'm sure she would like to have credit given where credit is due. How would you describe the unique role that Molly and Maple play? Not just in your life in it, but as symbols in the book?

23:39 S4

Oh, Molly and Maple are the message-carriers of the book. They to me are the hope that the book talks about, because anyone who can't understand the actual words can see those eyes and see those dogs. And as Barbie said earlier, get the message about kindness and tenacity and relationships, the relationship of us with our guide dogs, that when somebody hurts our dog, they really hurt us - as I know you understand, Lizzie.

24:04 S2

Certainly.

24:04 S4

That's I think what's so important about having the dogs so prominent in the book, that it makes it accessible to everyone.

24:11 S5

And of course, we've done a number of live events, and we're entirely conscious that we need not have been there as long as the dog was there. The dog was the diva in every case.

24:20 S4

And in fact, Sara was walking down her street and children from the school approached her and basically told her that if the dog didn't come back to the school, she needn't bother. Oh, not quite, not quite in those words.

24:31 S2

But I know. Yes. Yeah. That's amazing, isn't it? Because I'm sure that you would have experienced this as well, and I certainly did. The dogs can act as icebreakers. Oh, yes. But I found that having Lacie, people would just gravitate towards me, and conversations would start quite organically without me having to start. So did you find that to be a benefit to you?

24:51 S4

Oh, very much so. It's so, so easy to do public speaking when you can't see a. Because I can't see the audience, but... because the dogs sit next to me and I'm patting them. So that's giving me support. But also I know everyone's looking at them and not me, which takes all the pressure off.

25:06 S2

Yes of course. How can people obtain a copy of this book?

25:10 S5

Well, it depends where they are, actually, Lizzie. If they're in Adelaide, they can certainly go to Shakespeare's Bookshop. People, however, can go to any bookshop around Australia because we have a national and New Zealand distributor. So if the bookshop is asked to get a copy in, they can through the distributor. It's also available through our website. Richard and I have a website, writing with light dot com dot AU - and people can order a copy from there. We will mail it to them if they're somewhere else other than Canberra, or I'll hand deliver it to people in Canberra where we live. So most bookshops around Australia should be able to get it for you if you ask them to, if they don't already have it.

25:48 S2

Do you have any social media that you can promote?

25:51 S5

I have Instagram with my name Barbie Robinson 56. Annette has a very active presence on Facebook. I do have Facebook as well, but hardly ever do anything on it. And there's of course the website that I just mentioned, but I'm a very frequent poster on Instagram. So if people want to find pictures of the book and the launches and all the activities, they can go there and they can also contact me through Instagram.

26:15 S2

Thank you so much Annette and Barbie for joining me in the studio. I really do feel inspired but also hopeful for the future - not just for me, but for other people who deal with vision loss and other people who deal with any sort of change in their lives. You certainly give me a lot to think about. Thank you for coming into the studio, and thank you for being guests on Studio 1.

26:34 S5

Thank you so much for having us. Great honor to be here.

26:49 S3

And that's a wrap for this week. A big thank you to Annette and Barbie. 

26:55 S2

And of course, thanks for listening.

26:56 S3

Next week: What goes into making our shows? A lot of very standard questions. So we thought it would be fun to actually ask each other the very same vox pop questions that we ask you, the listener.

27:09 S2

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have any experience of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know - your story and insight may help someone who is dealing with something similar.

27:25 S3

You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org. That's studio, number one at Vision Australia dot org.

27:30 S2

Or perhaps you can look us up on our socials, whether it be Instagram, Facebook or X, just look up VA Radio Network. We really do want to hear from you.

27:41 S3

Bye for now. Bye.

27:55 S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.