Taxi!

00:05 ID

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio. 

00:09 Unknown Speaker

No questions about it. The law is the law. I'm sure when they do get their taxi license, I'm sure that there would be something in there stating, you know, that guide dogs are allowed, that they can't refuse them.

00:26 Lizzie

Hello, I'm Lizzie. 

Sam

And I'm Sam, and this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision blind point of view - here on Vision Australia Radio.

00:36 Lizzie

On this week's show...

00:37 Sam

Have you ever been refused access to a taxi or rideshare? Well, you're not alone. This week we talk to three dog guide handlers about their experiences. And I believe you've got a few things to talk about.

00:49 Lizzie

Oh, yes, I do.

00:51 Sam

We also replay an interview with Olivia Berry from one three Cabs. Have they found a solution to the problem?

00:57 Lizzie

As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio One. Or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

01:15 Sam

You can email us studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's Studio 1 at Vision Australia dot org.

01:21 Lizzie

Or perhaps you can drop us a note on our Facebook. Just go to facebook.com slash VA Radio network.

01:27 Sam

So. Hello, Lizzie.

01:29 Lizzie

Hello, Sam. How are we today?

01:31 Sam

We are fine. And we are dealing with... a topic that is, well, extremely inflammatory in its own way. It's amazing how... you just scratch a little bit and a lot of stuff happens.

01:44 Lizzie

Yeah, it's actually a wonder we hadn't done this episode sooner. It's quite a contentious issue, and a lot of people have a lot of things to say about it, and not all of it good. But... I think it's something that as a guide dog, a seeing eye dog handler myself, we've all experienced this and...

02:01 Sam

Well, this is something I've noticed myself is listening to people talking about it in the past, and the only people that don't seem to have experienced this issue are either married and are driven around everywhere by their significant other, or are still living at home and are driven everywhere by their parents. So if you don't use a taxi or rideshare, you don't get... refused by one.

02:25 Lizzie

Yeah, well, I believe... Annette said in the first interview that we'll listen to that when we are refused our dog guides in the cab. It inhibits us from being able to move in the community independently. And that's the key thing we're trying to maintain or improve our level of independence.

02:42 Sam

So one of the reasons why we are covering this topic in this episode is... recently, the company 13Cabs has changed its system to allow users to, well, be tracked a lot easier. We will be coming to that later on in this episode... replaying an interview that was done by Peter Greco on the Focal Point program at the end of last year. But first, let's jump straight in and talk to both... well, you can introduce them, I suppose. Lizzie.

03:14 Lizzie

Yes - we're going to be talking to Annette Holden and Janice Woodall. So, Annette, when I first asked... people to comment on the refusal of guide dogs in taxis and rideshare vehicles, you were the first one to respond. Can you tell me why you're so passionate about this topic? 

Annette

Taxi and rideshare refusals are one of the biggest barriers I find to accessing normal community life. I've been late to a funeral. I've missed a very important medical appointment with my then teenage daughter, and it was really important. And she was there on her own without her mother, because the taxi refused to take my guide dog. I've been late to the airport. I've missed very important meetings, and it's so common. It's not occasional, it's regular. And that is not okay in a civilised society, and especially when it is the law that we are to be conveyed or transported like anybody else. 

Lizzie

Janice, thank you for coming on to the show. Firstly, tell me, how long have you been a dog guide handler? 

Janice

For four years. 

Lizzie

And in that time, how many refusals do you think that you've had?

04:26 Janice

Are you just referring to taxis? 

Lizzie

Yeah.

04:28 Janice

Taxis or Uber? 

Lizzie

Either one.

04:30 Janice

I don't know. I probably can't count that high.

Lizzie

In comparison to... which one would you say has the worst... ratio of refusals? Taxis or Ubers? Uber?

04:40 Janice

Definitely Uber. Yeah. Uber. Yeah.

04:42 Lizzie

Do you have any thoughts as to why you think that is?

04:45 Janice

Put them politely, I say, because they're new Australians.

04:47 Lizzie

That's a pretty common.

04:49 Janice

It's just I'm trying to be polite. If I was talking to friends, I would say it in other words.

04:52 Lizzie

But yeah, of course. No, that's a pretty common thing that a lot of people have said. And... what do you think should happen to drivers that refuse to take dogs?

05:04 Janice

Different states have different laws. I'm sure you would know all of this. Here we have the laws with Jihad, the guide hearing assistance dogs. It's Queensland government department.

05:13 Lizzie

They have different rules... regarding ride share refusals.

05:17 Janice

I put a complaint in with jihad every time because there's a fine if you refuse a guide dog, whether it's accommodation, a restaurant, a clothing store, a taxi, whatever, there's a fine. But jihad never finds anyone because they can't be bothered doing the paperwork. 

05:32 Lizzie

I was giving a seminar up in the Adelaide Hills, so it was a very big fair. And the taxi refused to come when they found out that there was a guide dog. And, I mean, I was the person leading the session. I had to be there. And it took the involvement of a lot of people to actually get me there on time by the skin of my teeth. Of course, my stress levels were absolutely through the roof, but every time there's a refusal, it's stressful. Anytime I actually book a taxi, I'm stressed because I'm always concerned as to whether or not it will turn up. Especially if I'm travelling interstate. And will I? Or will I not make the plane? Make the flight? It's always on my mind that I may not get there. Which and again, that's not okay. Absolutely not. 

And do you book the taxis beforehand like... 

Janice/Annette?

Oh, yes. The night before or something. Yeah. Yes yes yes. And I've actually seen them drive up because I have 2% sight. I can actually see them drive up, actually notice the dog because then they take off. There's a side street that goes off from my house and I and they've actually stood and seen them look at the dog and go down the side street. And now with the advance booking and my, technology on my phone, I can track where they've gone and where they're heading. And I've actually had arguments with their actual companies saying they saw me and they've taken off down that street. They're gone. And the companies have argued, Oh, no, no, no, they're just lost. Well, they're not lost because it's all on the tracker.

07:03 Janice

Let's pretend that you're an Uber driver, that every time you get into because it's your personal car, every time you get into your personal car and log on to your Uber platform. Did you know that a thing comes up stating that you have to allow guide dogs in your car?

07:20 Sam

Well, no, I didn't, but they do.

07:23 Janice

But no one bloody reads it because they just scroll and then hit the tick button, the tick box, you know, to say yes, I've read it and people have a go at me and say, Well, Janice, you should have ordered a pet friendly Uber. And it's like, well, you've got to wait longer because not all Ubers say yes to pets. And plus you got to pay extra money. And thirdly, my guide dog is not a pet.

07:50 Sam

Yeah, exactly.

07:51 Lizzie

I don't, I just don't go out. I stay at home. I just don't anymore.

07:55 Sam

What do you say to people who say things like, Oh, just tell them that them that you've got a guide dog. I sometimes do. In fact, I usually do put it into the booking just so that they're aware, because it's. I'd rather not have the argument, quite frankly, and I'd rather be picked up and have someone who's kind and, and wants to convey us. But we don't have to by law. We don't have to report that we do. And then, of course, I think it potentially less likely that we'll be left standing on the corner if we haven't reported it at one time. And that was actually, of all places at disability rights premises in a very busy part of the city. There were taxis back and forward all the time. 

It took me three hours to get a taxi because and it had been pre-booked by that organisation. But every time they saw the dog they drove off and that was not, that was all of the companies that wasn't even just one company. And like, it was just disgusting. There's no other word for it.

08:51 Lizzie

I was in South Australia, I was in Adelaide for a... Cornish festival, and I flew back to Brisbane. You know, the guide dog gets her own seat on the plane. Pretty sure you'd understand that. Got off the plane and picked up my luggage and then went to the taxi rank. And they had a marshal there who, you know, puts everyone in line and gets me in a cab. And then, uh, the marshal said, uh, you go to number six. So we waited at number six. The cab pulled up, he got out, he put my luggage in the boot and then said, There's no more room for your dog in the boot. You'll have to leave the dog behind.

09:32 Sam

Wait, what?

09:33 S2

Yeah, this is what he said. I said he is a guide dog. He will come in the car with me. And he's like, No no no no no. No dogs. I said, he's a guide dog. It's against the law to refuse a guide dog. Yeah. And he just went on and on and on. The marshal started saying, mate, you've got to take the dog. And then I pulled out my camera and started recording everything. A security came out and, you know, started on me. And I said, what's wrong? And she said, you know, you raise your voice. I said, This won't let me in the cab. He's refusing my dog. And she says, Oh, this happens all the time. I said, Well, do something about it. Like, you can't just tell me to shut up when I'm fighting for my basic rights. 

And then the taxi driver was saying, When I filled out the form, it said, do you want to allow pets? And I said, No. He said, So we're not allowing your pet. And then another taxi driver pulled up and stopped, got out of the cab and come towards us because he could hear the argument. And then the taxi driver that I was arguing with said to the other driver, he says, You tell her, you tell her. And the guy said, Oh, what? He says, I don't want to take the dog. And he says, Mate, it's a guide dog. You've got to take the dog. I yearned to kiss him, you know what I mean?

10:54 Sam

Yeah, exactly. Oh, see, I've had that happen too. But then I've sort of felt unsafe going into the cab with that person that's refused initially because then you're like, Well, how are they going to treat me when I get in the cab and we're away from exactly the guy, and is he going to look after me the same way that he would have otherwise?

11:12 Lizzie

Like, I wouldn't get in with him because of that exact reason. And the security made him leave, and they have to pay a fee to enter the airport. So he paid the fee to enter the airport and then got kicked out. So he technically he, you know, he lost out and they said, And don't come back for 24 hours.

11:35 Sam

Wow. That's intense.

11:37 Lizzie

And then they lined me up with another taxi driver and I said, Are you going to have my dog? And he said, Yeah, it's a guide dog. And I'm like, ine, you know, thank you. And I went through I reported at Jihad. Jihad says, Oh, we'll just send him some information, he doesn't understand. And so I went to the police, and that was where the police officer said, If he doesn't want you to take your dog, he doesn't have to. And so I had to go to the cop. And then this bloke ended up getting getting a fine from the police. And I also lodged a complaint with Human Rights. And it was with 13 Cabs. And they said We are not responsible for any of the drivers. We are just a platform. It is not our issue.

12:21 Sam

I've even been on parliamentary committees into problems with rideshare and taxis, and the same problems continue ten years later. It seems that we fix one problem and the next one arises. And I'm tired of it. Oh, absolutely, I can imagine. So in an ideal world, what systems would you like to see put in place for drivers that either don't comply or don't know they should lose their license? And in those meetings, it was argued that there should be more than one strike and they're out. I. In fact, it was suggested it should be three. That means we're going to be overlooked by an awful lot of taxi drivers, potentially. 

I'm really of the view that given that the companies all say they're trained, the drivers are trained and they know the law and they have the stickers in the car saying Guide Dogs Welcome. And quite often it is people with those stickers on the cars that do the refusals or carry on and put on an act, once we're in the car about, Oh, I don't want a dirty dog. And that's a direct quote. I don't want a dirty dog in my car - and my dogs, and as yours have been, are the most beautiful, clean, well-behaved dogs you'd ever meet. Better than most passengers, I suggest... human passengers, I suggest. 

Lizzie

I think you might be right. 

Sam

So I'm actually a hardline view that if they're as trained as they are, as we're told. And that's the argument that's always given when complaints are made. Then one strike and they're out. Unless they have a very, very good reason. Because you're law. It's also just kindness and... ethical. But it's the law.

14:05 ID

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

14:11 Lizzie

I don't leave the house at all anymore unless I have a support worker to pick me up and drive me somewhere. And then even then, there's refusals everywhere we go, like, you know, accommodation and pubs, you know, cafes and stuff. You get refused everywhere here. But at least I can go, you know, my support worker will pick me up and take us to because I do Park Run. That's our day out. That is, our life is Park Run every Saturday morning. That's it. That's all I have because in Queensland you get refused entry everywhere. 

Even government departments like the community... you know, the community centres where you go and do... yep, knitting classes, all that sort of crap. You even get refused entry there in the government based community centers. Yeah, you get refused there everywhere. You get refused everywhere in Queensland. So don't go. Don't leave the house.

15:06 Sam

Or don't move to Queensland.

15:07 Lizzie

Yeah, well, I made that stupid mistake. No.

15:10 Sam

So when you've complained about cab drivers or Ubers refusing your guide dogs, what's the usual reporting process that you undergo? 

Lizzie

Oh, I've tried it all. I've.... gone through the companies and you might as well whistled to the wind. I've gone to parliamentarians and I've gone to the department, and I've gone to ministers offices and then to the department. I've gone to the disability commissioner, and it's just never ending. Um, and I know that the department has... taken the reports seriously. I've... had... interstate witnesses actually provide witness statements, and but it still continues. 

Sam

If so, in all the times that you have reported these refusals and all the hoops that you've jumped through, are you aware of any individual drivers having to deal with any consequences? 

Lizzie/other speakers?

No, I think not. And also, I have been told that due to privacy legislation, I can't be told. Now, in some circumstances where I didn't even know who the driver was, like, there was no, I had no record of their name or anything like that. I can't see how that legislation would be necessary. But the answer is no. I know that there's different laws involved there, so it is a bit awkward. But in some circumstances when it's been particularly traumatic, particularly awful, where a driver actually effectively kidnapped me at night and... in fact, a member of... a minister in the government actually came to my aid, because he literally was driving in the wrong direction and refused to let me get out of out of the taxi - and then dump me in the middle of nowhere. This is some years ago now, I hasten to add. 

But... that's actually the worst thing that's happened. As you can imagine, anybody would be terrified in that situation. Fortunately, I did have... a personal number for this politician, and the person came to my assistance. And again, I've no idea what the repercussions were for the driver when I actually, I phoned the company from the back of the taxi, and... I was telling them what was happening, and they just kept saying, Oh, the driver's right. The driver knows where he's going, the driver knows what he's doing. And I said, well, the driver's locked the door and I've asked to get out and the driver will not let me out. And... so, you know, that's... the sort of rubbish that we deal with. 

And I'm not alone. I've heard this from other people, too. And South Australia is not the only place, I've had similar and numerous experiences in Melbourne and Sydney as well. So... and when you ask before about Uber, yes, I had an experience in Sydney, with a group of friends from overseas and interstate, and the... one of the friends from overseas actually booked a Pet Uber and and I said, Oh, that wasn't necessary because she, my dog can go in Uber. And anyway, the Pet Uber drove off with this man still arguing that she's a guide dog, which was irrelevant because it was a Pet Uber. And and he was literally, the car was driving.... well, he was still hanging out of the back of the car. If it was a TV movie or show or something, people would think it was rubbish. They'd think it was nonsensical. 

Well, I have to say yes, listening to those interviews, that there are a lot of common issues that dog guide handlers, um, face when it comes to taxi refusals. And I have quite a lot of my own stories. I've found to most of my trouble to be more with Uber, because the system with which you can report the drivers is a lot more inaccessible. But the craziest story that I've had is I was at my friend's house and I had Lacey with me, and I was trying to find my way home, and I called a cab to come and pick me up, and he refused the dog. Now my friend gets quite animated about these sort of things, and she will argue till the cows come home. She was sitting in the front passenger seat of the cab arguing with the driver, and he has started driving off with her feet and legs hanging out and the door open while she's trying to have an argument with him about how it's illegal to refuse a guide dog. So I think that's the craziest story I've ever come across.

19:26 Lizzie

But it's not the only one, is it?

19:28 Sam

No, no, it's not the only one. It's it's so scary how common that is, because this stuff happens in real life to a lot of people.

19:36 Lizzie

I think one of the problems here is, well, it's cultural. There are certain cultures that regard dogs to be unclean. In fact, if you if the worst thing you can say to perhaps a Arab or a muslim is to call them a dog. So there are problems there, but, well, they're living in our country and they are doing a job that well, part of it is transporting people with a guide dog.

20:06 Sam

Yes, a lot of people share the similar opinion, you know, as blind people. We all have jobs that we would love to do but aren't able to do because of our or because of our lack of sight.

20:17 Lizzie

Well, we can't drive a cab.

20:18 Sam

Exactly. But in in the same sort of vein, if your job is to interact with the public and you know that it's possible that you might have the experience of having to transport someone with a guide dog, you can't refuse that. So if you're not willing to actually do that, then I think it's a bit crazy to be working a job where that sort of thing is possible to happen.

20:40 Lizzie

And the fact that government doesn't seem to do anything about it. This is... the thing that fascinates me, is all across Australia, you've got fines that are around about $10,000, but they might as well be $1 million, or they might as well be $1, because if they're not enforced, then you might as well not have a fine at all.

21:00 Sam

This, again, is something that's very commonly said by a lot of people in the responses that I got. And by the way, thank you. I was inundated with responses from people that wanted to talk about this. There was, like I said, a lot of common threads, and that was another one. When you complain to somebody about these incidents, they pass the buck and nobody is willing to take responsibility for the actions of their drivers. The companies aren't willing to take responsibility. The Human Rights Commission apparently says it's just a platform. Like there's a lot of stuff I'm hearing from people. It's not just 1 or 2 people saying this stuff. There's a lot of people out there saying the same thing. Somebody needs to take responsibility.

21:43 Lizzie

And it's not exactly as if there are aren't any precedents. I mean, if someone parks in the wrong place or overstays their paid parking, they get a ticket for it and they have to pay the fine. It surprises me that someone being denied their mobility, being, uh, you know, stopped from going home even, or trapped in the middle of nowhere, doesn't get some sort of, um, you know, fine. If they lodge a complaint. It's, uh, it's a really strange thing. So the consequence of stranding somebody is less than parking in a loading zone.

22:19 Sam

Yeah, exactly. And again, it's because it's not being reinforced. Like there are fines in place, depending on who you talk to, which company or which state you're in. There are systems put in place where fines should be put out, like the amounts are set, but nobody reinforces it. If they reinforce that as much as they reinforce parking tickets or speeding fines, they would collect so much revenue. It's crazy.

22:44 Lizzie

It's a mystery. And if we can find a single... politician or government official to talk to. Then maybe they can explain it. But we have maybe a light at the end of the tunnel, and we're hoping that that light is not an oncoming train, but end of last year. Peter Greco spoke to Olivia Barry from 13Cabs - and we'll play the interview now.

23:08 Peter

Now this is very, very exciting. Tell us what you've done as far as your app goes.

23:12 Olivia

Okay, so Peter, we know there is an ongoing requirement to keep improving the way we look after passengers who are travelling with a guide dog or an assistance animal. And we have made it, you know, part of our mission to really continue to look at ways to improve that. And we have made some changes in our app that we think will provide a good step forward in the right direction with this. So passengers travelling with a guide dog or an assistance animal can nominate that they are doing - so when they make a booking on our one three club's app. 

And what that does is a couple of things in the background. When that booking is sent out to our cars, the driver will not be able to see that the passenger has made that nomination, that they're travelling with the guide dog or an assistance dog. They'll just accept a job as it comes through. But once they accept the job, we will send a notification to the driver directly into their car to remind them of their obligations under the law when picking up passengers with guide dogs and assistance animals. And we'll also remind them to provide great service. And we think by doing that and giving the driver that warning that we will facilitate more successful trips.

24:39 Peter

Okay, so I guess in a sense it's kind of a prompt to say, you know, These are your responsibilities, here it is in writing, as it as it were. Act appropriately.

24:47 Olivia

That's exactly right. And the other thing it enables us to do is watch the booking more closely. So we know that booking is sort of flagged in our system, if you like. And we have four call centres across Australia, and we have supervisors who watch our particular jobs to make sure that they are picked up and this will come through as one of those jobs that will sort of be treated with a little bit more special attention, and it gives us the opportunity to make sure the driver does the right thing or deal with that driver in real time.

25:25 Peter

Well, that's really, really important, isn't it? Because, yeah, I'm sure you've heard stories of people waiting for a cab. The cab turns up and then the driver says, No, no, I'm not taking you. And away they go. And of course, you know, hey, the passenger's kind of lost or What do I do now? And then in terms of some remedial action being taken, time can elapse.

25:42 Olivia

That's exactly right. And we know that when we speak to drivers in real time about issues, we get much better results in terms of re-educating them or disciplining them if we need to. So we think that's a big positive to come out of this. And it means that the drivers know they're being watched a bit more closely to... not a bad thing either.

26:08 Peter

No. Fair enough. Yeah. So this is for 13Cabs. And this is kind of applicable right throughout Australia.

26:14 Olivia

Right throughout Australia. So 13Cabs app is available across Australia. And it could dispatch either 2 or 13Cab or a Silver Service cab. Or in Perth we have Swan Taxis co-branded with 13Cabs. 

26:30 Peter

Can you give us a bit of an idea of how this has come about and why? I guess I can kind of guess, as I said, and it's not just 13Cabs, but, you know, some of the RideShare people also get accused of not picking up people. I guess this is kind of trying to kind of be proactive and do something before it gets to that stage.

26:48 Olivia

13Cabs, and personally myself, we have been working in this space actively for a long time with Guide Dogs Australia and also with Assistance Animals Australia on educational videos and different methods we can use to communicate to drivers about this issue, and then other ways we can use our technology to keep improving the situation. And it's something that we come together as a team across our business, with our customer care team, our contact centre team that look after drivers and our tech team, to continue to improve. And we've had some input across the last six months with some dedicated focus groups, which includes passengers who are travelling with guide dogs or assistance animals, or... who are visually impaired to give us that direct feedback about the experiences they've been having.

27:50 Peter

Just to clarify, people have got to kind of go into the app and change their... preferences or their settings?

27:57 Olivia

That's right. That's right. Okay.

28:00 Peter

So yeah. Yeah. So it's up to the individual to kind of go into the app and also then put the settings so that the people when they received the book and get... that information.

28:11 Olivia

That's right. So in the top left hand corner when you open the app, is a little hamburger menu. And you just tap that and then you tap Profile, which will be your profile where you've loaded your own information. And in that screen it says Travelling with an assistance animal. And you just click it and change the setting which is set to No, to Yes.

28:37 Peter

Okay. Yeah. So you got it. You got to kind of change that. Yep. You got to kind of change it to say yes. You are travelling with an assistance animal and... that's pretty much it... and all about it. That's it then?

28:47 Olivia

Yep. Then it'll stay there on your profile. And as you book taxis, that set of rules that happens in the background will just happen.

28:55 Peter

All right. And, I think... in your media release that you put out, you've actually said that if people do have a little bit of difficulty or if it's a little bit challenging to... work with the app, you're more than happy for people to contact you and say, Help, give me a hand.

29:10 Olivia

Absolutely. So we have a customer care team, um, available to help. And also who like we really like to get people's feedback as that continues to help us, um, understand different situations. So we encourage people to please contact us and give us feedback as they're using this. Um, that would be great.

29:32 Peter

So in a sense, this is... an ongoing project. I mean, it's absolutely an initiative, but... you're always leaving a bit of room for improvement or to make it better tomorrow than it is today.

29:42 Olivia

100% Peter, and we'll continue with our focus groups, because I'm sure there's more we can do in this space... not only with our own technology, but by speaking to regulators across the states as well... to help make sure drivers who do the wrong thing, are dealt with appropriately.

30:01 Peter

Now, is this actually started now, or is this.... ?

30:04 Olivia

Yes. Yes. Available now. Available now. Yep.

30:07 Peter

Alright. So obviously 13 2227 is 13Cabs' phone number. Have you got that email address handy there Olivia if you want to give feedback? 

30:15 Olivia

Yeah. Yes. Customer care at 1 3 Cabs dot com. You can also go to our website and find your way through to the customer care feedback form there.

30:32 Sam

Okay. So Lizzy, um, it's the first time you've heard that interview. What did you think?

30:36 Lizzie

Well, I know I had a few questions, uh, related to this and a few concerns. My first one would be like, what are your metrics of success and how are you going to track the waiting times of people with dog like handlers as compared to others? Is that going to be a factor that they look at as well? Yeah, I had like I said, I had so many people inundate me with responses and questions that they wanted to ask one three calves if they ever had the chance. And I know those were just a few of my concerns. What about you, Sam?

31:10 Sam

One thing that I've noticed is, okay, so they're not telling the drivers that the person is using an assistance animal. However, if that particular message is coming across only when they're dispatching a job that happens to have an assistance animal, then I don't think it's going to take long for drivers to put two and two together there. So I think they need to be, uh, randomly putting that message out with other jobs as well. So there is a lack of Lack of predictability there. That would be one thing that I would notice. 

Also, I think if they're tracing this, if drivers are still refusing the fares, they should be sending out a spreadsheet to the owners of the taxis and saying, by the way, these are the jobs that your drivers have refused and this is the amount of money you have lost thanks to it, because I think going on people's decency hasn't worked. However, the bottom line is the bottom line. And if they've lost money because somebody... doesn't like dogs, I think that would speak louder. I mean, what do you think?

32:22 Lizzie

I agree with you, and I think it's sad that we're in a day and age when people's sense of conscience won't win out and that you have to, you know, like, threaten their livelihoods in order to get the appropriate response. It's quite sad. Um, you know, we've gone over what people have experienced. And I was saying to you off air before, it can be really scary, especially if you're in the in the middle of nowhere or in the middle of the city and you're trying to get home, and that's the only way that you can get home. It can be scary. So this sort of stuff should be taken with a bit more seriousness than it currently is by a lot of other companies and things, I believe.

32:58 Sam

And by government in general.

33:00 Lizzie

And yes, government in general as well. But all the peak bodies and all that.

33:03 Sam

Mm. So this is not the last time that we are going to be tackling this subject this year. In fact, I will... disclose now that currently 13Cabs is a station sponsor. So we will be sending a link to this podcast to... Olivia who have just heard from and we'll give it, say, 3 to 6 months and see how things are going, and if she wants to actually have a chat with us as well. The reason why I chose to replay the interview that was done last year was I don't think I could have covered anything better than Peter did, and I didn't see the point of going over old ground. And I think we need to wait to see if this succeeds or not, to... judge whether it was worthwhile or not. I mean, yeah, what do you think about that, Lizzie?

33:52 Lizzie

I agree there's been a lot of misinformation going around about this new update to the system, and a lot of people have gotten the wrong idea. Now, from what I heard of the interview and what she was saying, this is a lot more than what a lot of companies have done prior to this. At least one three cabs is giving it a go and trying to put some system in place. I think a lot of people misconstrue why the system has been put in place, and they feel a bit targeted by the fact that they've been asked to, you know, disclose whether they have an assistance animal. But, you know, I think we should give it a chance to see how it goes.

34:29 Sam

Well, they can't really do much if they... don't have a registration system. That's the big thing here. So it's a case of keeping track of who is there. And so once they've actually got that on their system, then we'll see how we go. And I think we can congratulate them for trying to do something. And if it doesn't work then, well, we'll take it from there. So as I said, we will see what the response of 13Cabs and indeed any other rideshare or taxi company is in, say 3 to 6 months and see how we go. 

35:02 Lizzie

I think the other thing is to if they're keeping track of all the people that register, the fact that they've got an assistance animal, it's going to be a lot easier for these people that get refusals to report back. At the moment, we're just left with, you know, we have to email a specific person or go to a website that can be quite inaccessible at times. Whereas with this method, I think it's a lot easier to flag it if it happens, and it will be a lot easier to report and deal with.

35:26 Sam

Again, I think that the automated systems can be brought into place with this one. But anyway, that is a wrap for this week. A big thank you to Annette and Janice. Also, thank you to Peter Greco for allowing us to use the... interview with Olivia Barry.

35:42 Lizzie

And of course, a big thank you for listening. As usual, you can find this episode on Apple, Spotify, Google, or your favorite podcast platform.

35:52 Sam

Next week we go over to Europe to talk to Lars Bohinen from the European Blind Union.

35:58 Lizzie

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know - your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

36:14 Sam

You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

36:20 Lizzie

Well, feel free to look us up on social media, whether that be Instagram or Facebook. Just search for VA Radio Network. Bye for now.

36:28 ID

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.