Knowable Me

00:06 S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

00:19 S2

Hello, I'm Sam...

00:20 S3

And I'm Lizzie.

00:21 S2

And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view, here on Vision Australia Radio.

00:26 S3

On this week's show...

00:28 S2

We're off to the shops. A few of our friends talk about how they handle their weekly dose of retail therapy, and we are also joined by Kelly Schultz from Knowable Me. There are opportunities for each of us to have our say on the retail environment, and also get paid for it.

00:42 S3

As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

00:58 S2

You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org -  that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

01:03 S3

Or perhaps you can drop us a note on our socials. Just look for RVA Radio Network.

01:11 S2

Hello, Lizzie.

01:12 S3

Hello, Sam. How are we on this fine and glorious day? 

01:16 S2

Oh, it is a nice day. It is? Yes, but I'm going to say one word. And this is the bane of my existence the last couple of days. Plugs. Plugs? Yes. The things you put in plug holes that stop the water from going down. I spent probably more time worrying about plugs in the last couple of days than I should. We went to Bunnings because for whatever reason, every plug in the house has disappeared in one way or another. So we've got one plug that suits everything from the kitchen sink to the basins and well, measured up the the plug hole and that sort of stuff because, because we had this like, universal thing that basically doesn't work properly. And it's like, okay, this is the approximate size. It was the wrong size.

01:57 S3

No way.

01:58 S2

So bought four plugs, took back four plugs, worked out that they don't have our size in the massive hardware shop there. So yeah. And thank goodness I had a support worker with me. But, well, it basically meant I didn't need to second guess myself because you just said there's two sizes here and neither of them are the size we need.

02:22 S3

Oh, dear. Have you gone to Mitre10?

02:24 S2

I have gone to Amazon.

02:25 S3

Oh, okay. So you went the complete online route?

02:29 S2

I think that it was, you get to a point where you get fed up and you just simply go, You know what? I can't be bothered.

02:37 S3

They probably have a wider range of stock. Because, you know what's funny? We went to Mitre10 this week because Steven has a Weber, for which he does not have a grill. Oh. Do you know the amount of shops that sell grills without Webers? Not many. No, I think he found one. But, you know, in hindsight, if he'd actually gone online to look for it, I'm sure he could have found the specifics. But I think that's what we're talking about this week, isn't it? You know, the perks of online shopping versus going in-store, or the pros and cons of each.

03:08 S2

Very much so. But also we are catching up with a new player in the field as far as well. The shopping experience and what she is doing is essentially what we've been doing, and that is asking people what they think.

03:21 S3

Yeah, well, you should be able to share a lot of insights with us then. And I also believe that they host mystery shopping activities.

03:30 S2

Indeed. And we will have a bit of a word with her about that. But hopefully sometime in the new year, we might be able to catch up with a few of our mystery shoppers. Anyway, over to Kelly.

03:42 S4

Hello. Thanks for having me. 

03:44 S2

Thanks for being had, as it were. You have started a new enterprise. You might say it's a... website. And how else would you describe it?

03:53 S4

Well, we're actually we describe ourselves as a full service market research company. It just so happens that it's dedicated to people with disabilities and their support networks.

04:02 S2

So basically we can sum it up in two things, can't we. It's like surveys and the fun bit - shopping.

04:08 S4

Well, there's a few more than that, actually. So. Surveys, online surveys. Because everyone loves doing a survey and earning money for it. But then there's the mystery shopping. We also do research interviews. We do product testing. Someone asked us if we could do taste testing. I haven't quite found anyone to do that yet, so I might have to look into that one.

04:28 S2

I think if it involves eating and drinking stuff, then you've got two volunteers here. Yeah for sure.

04:34 S3

I've seen you promote a lot of your market research and surveys and stuff on... the guide dog handlers page and some other Facebook sites. So what made you want to start this, like, Knowable Me? What made you want to start this... market research project?

04:51 S4

There are kind of two key things for me. One is that I was doing user testing myself. So I was, you know, trying to get in to do testing websites or any of these things. I was trying to do it myself as a participant. And people kept asking, Can you use this? Which is a good question, because that's about accessibility. But they weren't asking, Would you buy it? And like, Do you love it? And that's the fundamental question is, Are you having a good time? Are you having a good experience. And so that was one reason, is that no one was asking people anything beyond the utility question. 

The other thing is I am curious about everything. So this is the perfect job for me. I've now got a panel of people, hundreds and hundreds of people, who will answer questions for me randomly when I think of them. And so, you know, I love to tell people now that our population, our members with disability all overwhelmingly love the idea of pineapple on pizza. And like...

05:51 S3

Yes, I'd have to agree. That settles an argument.

05:53 S2

Yeah, for sure.

06:00 S5

Shopping is fun. I do have a handy little red shopping buggy that I take around. I have a great big shopping centre, great big supermarket. That's only one train. Stop away. I can just jump on the train, take my shopping buggy. And the... station itself is also very accessible. It's got a great big ramp that I can wheel it up and down and don't have to... lug it up and down stairs and things, so that's fantastic. In terms of the shopping itself, seeing things at eye level is not a big problem. I haven't necessarily gone home with the wrong thing too much. 

There was one time I... went to the bottle shop and I picked up a six pack and thought, Oh, wow, this is pretty cheap. This is a bargain. This is absolutely fantastic. And then I got it home and I found out the reason it was $10 and not $20 was because it was, you know, 0.0 and alcohol free one, and that's that, you know, that didn't really sort of, jump out to me. And I, but that's probably the only notable thing that I've encountered in terms of picking up the wrong thing because I haven't been able to read the label because the print is so small. But, yeah.

07:35 S2

Any problems with, say, things that might be higher than I height or lower than I height?

07:40 S5

Not necessarily, because I can sort of still look at them very closely. I'm able to... get my face quite close to the... items and just read them quite carefully. And that's usually not been a problem, and I've been able to do that. But yeah, the, sometimes the prices aren't as big as they should be or could be. And that's, sometimes, you know, sometimes an issue I've seen, you know, things that I've thought, Oh, they're on special. I'll grab that. And then it's been advertised for the thing next to it, which is the thing I didn't buy. And so I don't get the discount that I thought I was going to get. And that's a bit disappointing when you have that happen. But, yeah, that's sort of thing is a bit... tricky. 

But yeah, in terms of the labels and stuff, it's quite easy to tell between, you know, which peanut butter smooth and which one's crunchy and... all that sort of thing, or what type of rice you want to take home or, you know, if you want... drinks or something like that. Which one's the which which one's the Powerade and which one's the Pepsi Max and all that sort of thing. And yeah.

09:08 S6

When it comes to shopping, I usually I always go out to shop. At the moment I help my parents with the shopping. If I'm by myself or with a support worker when shopping, I ask them what is this? Or could you please show me to where the tins are and so I can get some tuna? Or where are the packets? I need to get this and that and I'll be helped online. I don't really shop online. I have brought a couple of things like beauty products and yeah, mainly beauty products online. But I usually I prefer to go out to shop and especially with clothes shopping, I could never clothes shop online. I'd have to go out and actually try things on before I buy them. Yeah.

10:04 S3

Yeah, I think that's been the experience with most blind people. They need to shop on. They need to go and see the thing in store itself.

10:12 S6

Oh, totally. Totally. You never know, with online shop.

10:22 S7

I do a mix of two depending for groceries and clothing I prefer in person. Yeah. And I usually have a support worker there with me for the bulk part of it. And they help me find things on the shelf and all that. Despite what people think, the guide dog does not help me with shopping - able to get around the shop, but I cannot find the baked beans on the shelf. NDIS? No. When it comes like I will still do say, Amazon shopping for things that aren't necessarily as important to actually have laid your hands on to know what they are. Yep. You know, things that are common sense. 

And unfortunately, I'm caught up in the Timu thing. I love shopping with Timu. Yeah. And again, that's another thing that, you know, I buy things on there that aren't necessarily you have to put your hands on to know what the quality is like. So I won't buy clothing off them or anything like that. But yeah, as I said, most most of the stuff in I'm in person and some stuff online.

11:19 S3

So we were talking a bit off-air before about your eye condition. Can you tell us about your eye condition and how much vision you have?

11:27 S4

Yeah, I don't usually describe my eye condition because I just call myself blind with just enough vision to be dangerous, mainly because no one's ever heard of it. So I have what's called familial exudative vitreoretinopathy, and how much sight I have kind of depends on the context. I have a very contextual vision somewhere in the range of, I don't know, 2 to 5% somewhere around there, but it really depends on the day or the moment or anything else. So I do describe myself as blind, with just enough vision to be dangerous. And the way I describe that danger is it's more of a danger to myself, but I tend to overestimate how much I can see. Just like I think most people on the road overestimate their ability to drive.

12:06 S8

I love that, that's amazing.

12:08 S2

So how has having a vision impairment affected your work life... I should say, I mean, has it... created challenges or has it created opportunities?

12:20 S4

Oh, I'd be remiss if I said it hadn't created challenges. Obviously, accessibility is a big challenge just existing in the world. Even getting to work with a guide dog if you happen to want to catch a taxi is a problem. But it's also opportunities. There have been times where I've not wanted to be the token person with a disability or the token blind person, but then you realise that you actually get to use it, and you can use that to make change. And that's what motivates me, is being able to use that to make change. And I think that's having the optimistic outlook of that's what you're there for. Despite the challenges, has really been the benefit for me, but impacting work generally. I love my work and in particular now Knowable Me. 

I think the biggest challenge to deciding to start a company or a venture like this is actually just how inaccessible most of the normal business systems are. So the tax office dealing with the government, dealing with ASIC, who are the fundamental ones you have to deal with to run a business. It's not built for us. They're not accessible. I don't know whether they assume people who are blind don't want to run a business, but a lot of those systems are probably what makes it the hardest.

13:43 S2

I think those systems are not accessible to anybody. I think they seem to be designed the same way that the offices of those said offices are, places are designed.

13:51 S3

Oh, man. Yeah. I mean, I was going to say, I don't know, I don't know anything about creating a business, but I can tell you now, just going to the tax office as a normal person, not not a normal person. I'll rephrase that. But I have to say, just going to the tax office or like service, say to get name change or to get proof of ID or any of that stuff. It's pretty inaccessible as that is anyway. And those are just things that you need to do on a daily basis.

14:15 S2

Maybe we should. Yeah, let's get them to contact you and you can do some surveys, and I'm sure they'd love our responses to that.

14:22 S4

I'd love to know. I'd love to. Maybe that's a survey, an upcoming engagement survey. So we do we run surveys just because I feel like it. Like I said, I know what whether people like pineapple on pizza, but we also run them just to try and pick on those hot topics that people are struggling with. So we did accessible parking recently. We're doing one on K-mart at the moment, just for the fun of it, just to see what comes out of it and see what feedback we can go in and provide these people. And then hopefully they'll want to know more and they'll want to, you know, pay our people, to pay our members to do more. Maybe we'll do one on the tax office or Services Australia or something like that.

15:03 S9

I've generally always just gone and done it myself during Covid. I did do the online thing, um, but I still did go up to the supermarkets. But now we go shopping once a fortnight, with a support worker through the NDIS. And, you know, we can go obviously places that we couldn't go via public transport, so we can access a, you know, a particular butcher that we like and a particular fruit and veggie place that we like. And with the support of the support worker, obviously, you know, you can pick ripe fruit and that kind of thing. So that's where we're at.

15:41 S5

Clothes shopping.

15:42 S8

I prefer to go in person, but I don't like it. So you prefer to do online because I know what the products are before I, you know, I've had them before, whereas clothes shopping you don't necessarily haven't tried them on, haven't felt them, you know, texturally or checked out the size of the pockets or all these things. So like, like to do clothes in person and then food. Because I know what the product is. I've had it before. Bit easier to look it up. Know the difference. Brand size. Those things come more into play. More. More data driven, doing that online world. So to do. But that is something Adele does. So I'd only have to do that very much for groceries.

16:24 S10

Absolutely. Online. Now I don't want to navigate a supermarket I... just find it overwhelming now unless I've got someone with me which I really have tried, support workers and stuff, they just tell, just question everything I'm buying and you know, there's a cheaper one or no, no no no no, I don't want to I don't want someone I find I find grocery shopping quite a personal thing. So I don't really want someone I don't know that well with me, um, when I've had my kids and done it in the past with them, they just get annoyed because I'm taking too long. Oh, yeah. So I just love online shopping. Online grocery shopping. I just use the Coles app. It's all accessible. VoiceOver does it beautifully.

I sit on my lounge with a cup of tea and I put every... and now you can put it all in your trolley. You can do it before it takes you. No time at all. And they deliver it to my door. And just yesterday I only needed a handful of things. And they've got this thing now called Rapid, I think they call it Rapid. And they give it get it to you within the hour and it's like, Oh, that's so. Yeah. And, otherwise it's usually next day or next morning, I can choose my delivery slot. I can work it around when I'm training. Yeah. So definitely online grocery shopping. I use the Coles app, but I'm sure Woolies is just as good. Yep. And I love that I can go in and, you know, if I'm in a supermarket, I might be able to see every type of mayonnaise or every type of what when I'm on the app, I, it shows you all of it. I can look at the I can get voiceover to read the nutritional information, the protein. You know what that's like. You go to the...

17:57 S3

Oh yes, I certainly do. Yeah. No I'm forever comparing and yep, yep.

18:03 S10

And all that. I guess I can't pick and choose my own fruit and veg, which I used to like to do, but they're pretty good, I have to say. They're pretty good at choosing good stuff for me. Clothes shopping hit and miss for me, I do. I used to really like going into clothing stores and choosing things off and then trying them on in the again, I using my phone to read labels, all that sort of thing to get sizing. I just find some of the shop assistants not helpful. Yeah, I would do clothes shopping if I had to do it in a store with a friend or a support worker or a yeah, a my daughter or someone, my sister or someone if I had to. 

I do do a bit online, but it's a yeah, for me it's I never get what I'm when I think I'm what I think I bought online comes and it doesn't fit or whatever. And the whole returning stuff. Oh that's a pain. So yeah, the shopping, I can't really clothes shop on my own anymore. I don't know if I ever told you, but I may have mentioned in something along the line, but I actually used the services of a stylist, at one point, and she had experience of vision loss because... she took some medication once that took her vision from her, and she was totally blind for a few days and in hospital in Sydney Eye Hospital. 

And it was during that time that I engaged with her just by absolute fluke. A friend of mine said, if you want to use a I know a stylist in Sydney, she's great. She'll work with you, no problem. So when I contacted her, she was lying in hospital with no vision. Oh, wow. How's that the universe working? Anyway, she went, oh my God, I. This is too bizarre. I have to work with you. And I said, absolutely. She said, because now I have lived experience. And I said, Yeah, you do. And she'd had her vision back by that stage. Anyway, I went shopping. She did all my colours, she did my wardrobe, and we went shopping and she, you know, would choose things that were that suited me and the colours and everything. And we had a great day together. 

And from that I now know how to shop for me, so I know what suits me and what doesn't, what colors. So it makes the shopping experience a lot easier. And I don't know if it still does, but back then I was able to get that it was reasonable and necessary. Reasonable for me to have to use someone to help me shop, a reasonable for that person to know a bit about color and fashion, and necessary for her to be there. So the reason I'm talking about reasonable and necessary. So I got that funded on the NDIS.

20:35 S3

That's amazing. Wow.

20:37 S10

And I'm not the only one that's done it. I know others that are, wow, lazy about it. And what I was essentially doing was using her as a support worker. So it came out of that funding. So even though she was a stylist, I paid her as a support worker because that was absolutely it would be like taking a support worker shopping, except you're taking a very experienced fashion one with you.

20:58 S11

Why not? Why not? 

21:00 S10

Yeah, but I was able to work it out with her because obviously her fees were a lot more than the... NDIS rate. But but she was she came to the party and we worked it out. So, and she had the best day ever. She said it was until he was with us and, you know, and she was amazing. Yeah. It was... so if anyone, you know, has a bit of extra social media access, funding and wants to do that, that's that's a really useful way to... use it if you want to, make sure you're fashionable.

21:30 UU

[TUNE?] Da da da da da da da da da da da da.

21:35 S3

So when did you get the idea to start Knowable Me? And then how long? Between having that idea and launching the business did it take?

21:47 S4

So I think it's probably been coming up to two years now since I had the idea. And the good thing is, is so often you think of a business name and you go, Yep, I'm going to do that. And then I'll figure out what the business does later. I actually didn't name it for about six months because I didn't couldn't find the right name. But then I did a bit of work on who's doing anything in this space. So who is already doing it? Because I wasn't sure. There could have been quite easily been people already doing it. I just hadn't heard of them. So I did a lot of research to figure that out. And then another six months. 

So a year on from having the idea, we launched our first online survey. It was pretty rough. It didn't do much. It was pretty basic. And then just six months ago, we launched the membership portal. So it's been about two years to get to where we are now.

22:43 S2

So if we have listeners now that are going, gee, I'd like to get involved with this, what do they have to do?

22:49 S4

It's visiting Knowable Me as a website and knowable is spelt with a k, so k-n-o-w-a-b-l-e ... as in I am knowable, I will be known... and signing up. So I will say there are two bugs that impact screen readers on desktop computers. So Jaws and the Like mobile. That's pretty good. But there's two bugs that impact the the desktop users that we're trying to get those web developers to fix at the moment. So I will acknowledge that. But yeah, sign up or you can email research at me, and our friendly people will get back to you and say, ask you what you want to do and what you want to participate in and how we can help.

23:30 S2

So just restating what you guys do. So they you might have... a company that approaches you and says, We want to know about accessibility and what our people think about it, or that you will just commission these surveys because, well, you want to know what it's all about. But also tell us about this whole mystery shopping thing.

23:52 S4

Well, mystery shopping is super fun. I actually started mystery shopping way back when I thought it would be a fun thing to do, because you can do mystery shopping for things like McDonald's and they pay for your meal. So I thought that would be a lot of fun. But I couldn't do a lot of what they wanted you to do, which is to, you know, know what the name tag said of the person who served you. Oh, that is a problem. And so and so, of course, I didn't want to tell any of these people that I couldn't see, so I made a lot of stuff up. Don't tell them. 

So mystery shopping is really where you go out to into a store and they don't know that you're judging them effectively. And so we go into what might be a retail store selling, I don't know, shoes. And we the idea is, is that you're assessing is the store comfortable for you. Can you find what you need? Are the staff helpful? We usually send you in there with a particular goal in mind. So do they have this type of shoe in this size or something like that? We haven't actually ever done a shoe one. I'm just making that up. But we send you in there with a task to do, and you assess the answers they give you, how helpful they are. 

And from our case, it's really important how they treat people with disabilities. So are they. Do they take time to communicate in a way that's helpful for you? Do they, you know, adjust their their style? Do they spend time with you or do they dismiss you? Or if someone goes in with a support worker, do they talk just to the support worker rather than to you? Um, you know, some of those really classic things that we've a lot of us have experienced. So we're testing them on those sorts of things. And then so you get to have a bit of fun shopping or pretending to shop and give us some feedback on it and we'll go back and talk to those, talk to that company and give them some feedback. 

So, you know, one of the most recent ones we've done, we've given them feedback on the fact that they really need to change the waiting chairs that they have because they're a tripping hazard. They have legs that stick out, that splay out a little bit, and they're there a tripping hazard. We've told them that the the lights in store create a bit of glare that they the the price tags don't have big enough font on them for people who do have some vision. Oh yes.

26:16 S2

That's why there's a... certain bottle shop that is national, and they've decided to decrease the size of the font on their price tags, which basically means that I have to kneel down and look like I'm praying to to see the price of a bottle of scotch or something like that. 

26:34 S4

So I think that says you should be buying things from a higher shelf, Sam. Mm mm. You need the top shelf stuff so you can see it.

26:43 S2

Anyway.I think we're almost out of time. This has been fun. So if there are listeners out there who want to be involved, it's Knowable Me, Knowable dot Me - and Kelly definitely wants to hear from you and definitely get involved. I'm, we're looking into it ourselves. Lizzie's already on her phone.

27:01 S3

Yep. I I'm definitely going to sign up for this. Oh my goodness. You can expect a membership within the next couple of days.

27:08 S4

Looking forward to it.

27:09 S2

Thank you Kelly.

27:10 S4

Thanks for having me.

27:11 S2

That's a wrap for this week. A big thank you to Kelly Schultz as well as Sammy C, Emma, Lisa, Jody, Steven and Lily.

27:19 S3

And of course, a big thank you for listening. Next week?

27:22 S2

Well, it's over to you, Lizzy.

27:23 S3

I have the privilege of speaking with Melissa, who shares her remarkable journey with vision loss during the height of the COVID pandemic.

27:30 S2

Between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there is something we should be talking about, you never know.

27:38 S3

Your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

27:43 S2

You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org - That's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

27:48 S3

Or of course you can drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com slash VA Radio Network. We want to hear from you.

27:56 S2

Bye for now.

27:57 S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.