Geoffrey Lim

00:45S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

00:54S2

Hello, I'm Sam.

00:55S3

And I'm Lizzy.

00:56S2

And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio. 

01:02S3

On this week's show...

01:03S2

I catch up with former street dancer to the stars Geoffrey Lim. We talk about why he took up Dancing and Cipher Culture, an organisation he set up to help other street dancers.

01:13S3

As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

01:29S2

Please contact us by email: studio1@visionaustralia.org ... That's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

01:36S3

Or you can drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com slash RVA Radio Network.

01:43S2

So. Hello, Lizzie.

01:44S3

Hey, Sam, how are you going on this rather gloomy day?

01:48S2

It's a funny one. As I was heading in today, the sun was out and I was thinking, have I worn one too many layers of clothing? And then it started to rain.

01:59S3

Yes, I too opened up the back door this morning to a rather glorious day and thought, yay! I can walk and catch the bus with Lacey through Linear Park and all will be great with the world. And then yes, it started to look gloomier and gloomier as the day wore on.

02:15S2

Oh indeed. I mean, I do actually enjoy the journey I take to get in and out of work here. It's a train ride and then a walk through some park area, really. So I walk past the athletics track and where they're building up the the new South Australian Institute of Sport campus and yes, things like that. And so slowly watching this building sort of taking shape. And again, it's one of those things that I wish they'd done this 20 years ago or more, because it would have been very useful for the to have the South Australian Institute of Sport gym there, as opposed to way out at Kidman Park.

02:55S3

I tend to agree with you. I also enjoy my journey into the station because I get to walk through Linear Park for a bit in order to get to the nearest interchange. And Linear park is lovely.

03:05S2

So to our... interstate listeners, South Australia actually has less parks than a lot of other cities, but they're strategically placed. It sort of reminds me a little bit of Canberra as well. What I love about living in Canberra was you were never too far from a national park of some sort as well. So if you're going out running, you could, you know, take a turn here and then all of a sudden you're in bushland.

03:29S3

I have heard they have amazing cycling trails as well.

03:32S2

Very much so, very much so.

03:34S3

Wow.

03:35S2

So also what's been going on in the last few weeks is, well, we've had Senate estimates and a rather interesting tale being told of the NDIS being ripped off for billions.

03:48S3

Yeah, there's been a lot of stories about individual cases where people or businesses have just gone extremely over the top in their spending and taking people for granted, you know, for their money.

04:00S2

So. Well, I mean, the interesting one, what I heard, and it's in South Australia as well, is a rather enterprising company claiming NDIS money to take people on helicopter trips. So. Wow, over the Barossa Valley. So,yeah, if anyone's listening that's been involved with that, then I'm probably be prepared to get a phone call at some stage because they might be asking for their money back. The way I see it is, it's the NDIS is there for us to live a comparatively normal life. Yes, that's the way I see it. Yeah. So I claim it for a gardener because I cannot garden for anything. And I always will miss stuff. And for someone, once a week to drive me around places because, surprise, surprise, I can't drive either. And that's been very, very handy. We also do it for, you know, cleaners for the for the house because surprise, surprise, neither of us can see too well. And we miss stuff.

04:59S3

Yeah. That's it. I mean, we're the same. We have the cleaner and, the gardener that comes around once a month. And we also have our individual supports to help us do activities that we wouldn't be able to do safely without the support of someone sighted. For example, I get assistance at the gym. The NDIS wouldn't fund my gym membership. I was told specifically that, you know, people without a disability would have to pay for a gym membership and your disability doesn't, uh, exclude you from that. But they were willing to pay for me to get assistance.

05:33S2

Yeah, exactly. And I sort of see the logic of that, but helicopter trips?

05:39S3

Oh, boy.

05:40S2

Yeah, that would be, yeah...

05:42S3

I wish I knew about that before. You know, they were cracking down on that. I would have gone on hot air balloons and all sorts of things. I would have been living it up lavishly, but. No, that's crazy. I didn't know that.

05:55S2

And, well, I mean, there's been talk of organised crime getting into it as well, which hardly surprises me because the checks and balances on this scheme have been... rather miserable. The fascinating thing, though, is that, I mean, the logic that they seem to have gone to initially when they added extra, you know, hoops to jump through when you're trying to apply for. The thing was, hopefully we'd get fed up with applying and not not be on the scheme. Right. And that's that's a bureaucratic way of thinking of things. Of course, it doesn't work that way. How I like to sort of think of it nowadays is the problem they've got and why a lot of us are claiming a lot more than we were considering doing initially, is because it's a nuisance to apply for the damn thing. 

A friend of mine over in Perth, they basically got on the scheme because they defunded a volunteer program. That basically meant that someone came around and took him shopping and stuff like that. Wow. So the council was running that. And so the only way he could get the services that he was used to getting anyway was to get onto the NDIS. Yeah.

06:58S3

It's funny you should say that. Because one of the biggest problems I've had and I've brought up with others about the NDIS, is when the state run programs were in effect before the NDIS came about, there were a lot of group held activities. So guide dogs here used to run a transition group, which was basically for individuals, young adults who were coming out of high school, going into the workplace or into university between 18 and 25. And, you know, we'd have a day during the school holidays, every school holidays where we'd participate in activities that were useful and fun and helped us to engage with other people our age. 

But because the NDIS is all about individual supports and a lot of that group activity funding was taken away, there's been less drive or initiative for people to form groups and engage with other people in the community. It's it's kind of sad, actually.

07:55S2

And I think the other thing as well, and what I was getting at here as well is because it is if you're applying to get services that you're used to get. Yeah. Then you think, well, I've gone to all that effort, why don't I, you know, what else can I get out of this for sure. So if it was easier to get it, I sort of compare it to Amazon Prime subscription in reverse, where I once subscribed to the streaming service because I wanted to watch one show and then found out all these other things that I could get through it, and I hardly ever used them. All right. Whereas the NDIS is a case of people apply to this to get that one service that they couldn't live without. 

And then it's like, well, I've gone to all this effort, right? I'm getting a cleaner, I'm getting a gardener, I'm getting driven around there, I'm taking this hot air balloon ride. 

08:45S3

Yeah, I was going to say been pretty trips over the Barossa lately. Um hum. Wow.

08:50S2

So that we are not talking about the NDIS today on this... show, we are talking to Geoffrey Lim, who is a street dancer, and we sort of talk about what he used to do and what he's doing now. And it was a very good interview, actually. He sort of was very articulate about, what it's like to... lose his sight and also his background. And I think people will get a lot out of that.

09:21S3

Well, I've just got one question for you before we go to the interview. Sam, did he charge your NDIS to do the interview?

09:28S2

No, no, it was all free. Anyway, over to Geoffrey.

09:36S4

Hello, Sam. How are you?

09:37S2

So this is a first I've got to say, because you contacted us, no one. Hardly anyone uses our mailbox. And, all of a sudden, this big surprise there. What prompted you to get in touch?

09:48S4

I had actually been a beneficiary of some Vision Australia work before. And I'm a big fan of Vision Australia and everything it does. And I thought that maybe I could give back somehow. And this might be one way.

10:00S2

Well, yes. I mean, you've had quite the journey, really. You your claim to fame in some ways, if I might put it that way, is that you've been on TV a few times as a dancer, but I'm guessing that goes way further back. What made you decide that this was going to be your life? That dancing was going to be what you did?

10:19S4

Oh, there wasn't anything in particular. It was more just, knowing realisation over time. So I am a child of immigrant parents, refugees of war. And like many first generation... immigrants, they want, you know, their children to be better off than they are and have a better life. And so, you know, my parents wanted me to go to university, get a really good job. Earned lots of money and all that sort of stuff, and I started dancing in high school, and really all I wanted to do was just dance. And so there was always that little bit of conflict, within the family. And I did succumb to my parent's wishes. Initially. I did go into the corporate world for a good eight years. 

But what I realised was throughout that whole period, I could never stop thinking about dancing. And at every pedestrian crossing, I'd be dancing. I would watch dance videos every day. I would go to dance events all the time, and I always felt like I wanted to come back into the dance world. So it's been a long time coming, but I have finally come back from the TV world to the corporate world, and now back into the dance world.

11:35S2

I gotta admit, I do admire the your dancers because I used to be a fleet, and sometimes you'd see some of you guys actually training in the same gyms as we were. So it is just as intensive as an Olympic athlete.

11:49S4

Yeah, absolutely. I still remember those days... training at Nickerson National Institute of Circus Arts. We would train with all the other athletes, the gymnasts, the taekwondo specialists, the tricksters. There'd be a whole community of us just flipping and flying around everywhere.

12:07S2

Indeed. So you mentioned you came from... well, your parents fled from war. Where did they come from originally?

12:15S4

They're from Cambodia. So, they fled the Khmer Rouge back in the 1970s. I think it was where... there was a quite a genocide over there. And they were lucky enough to get scholarships to study in Australia. And then the war broke out and they couldn't head back to Cambodia. It was just far too dangerous. So I was very, very fortunate to get to be born here in Australia. And here I am now.

12:40S2

Yes, I grew up in Darwin, so we used to hear quite a lot about what was going on over there. And back in the 1990s, I was actually working at immigration when we had Cambodian refugees at that stage as well. So, yes, very familiar with that particular, um, conflict. Uh, have you made it back there at any stage once?

12:59S4

A while back when I was about 15 years old, but I haven't been back. It really is a beautiful country. I would like to go back someday.

13:06S2

So as I mentioned before, so you've been on television a few times. Do you want to elaborate? How did how did you get the gig?

13:13S4

Yeah. So I think my first television appearance was on the first season of Australia's Got Talent, way back. And I entered as a solo dancer and did reasonably well. I made it to the semi-finals and then didn't make it into the finals for that season. And then the following years I was on So You Think You Can Dance both seasons one and two, and that was so much fun, just being surrounded by all of Australia's best dancers and just everyone inspiring each other. And then a couple years after that, I was on another TV show on Network Ten called Everybody Dance. 

13:50S2

Now, when did you start noticing you were starting to lose your sight?

13:52S4

Oh, I would say from about age ten, actually. So very early on, I realised that I couldn't see in the dark. And I'll never forget the moment I told my parents, Mum, Dad, I'm having trouble seeing. I can't really find my way to the front door. And the reason I remember it is because they took me seriously. They didn't think that I was complaining or just being annoying. They actually sat me down and listened to me like they'd never listened to me before. And it was only later that I realised that I had some other family members with the condition, and so they thought that maybe I might have the same thing, which is called retinitis pigmentosa. So it's, night blindness, it's tunnel vision. It's a whole range of other things. 

So at age ten, and probably throughout most of school, I didn't really notice that it had too much of an impact on my life. And that was primarily because I didn't go out at night, I wasn't out partying or anything. I just went to school and then came back home at nighttime. But it was only until after I started going to uni and started trying to socialise that I realised, there were some limitations. So yeah, it's been a couple of years since then. The condition has degenerated quite a fair bit. And I only just started this year, just started using the mobility cane. So, I should have been using it ten years ago, but I'm now, yeah. In that world of using a mobility cane and all of the, like, great things that that unlocks for me, actually.

15:25S2

What's the coolest tool they've given you so far?

15:27S4

To be completely honest, it feels like the first time you use a mobility cane and get used to it. To me, anyway, it felt like I had a superpower. It really felt like I had an extra pair of eyes, like I had four eyes because before the mobility cane, I was always looking down in front of me like about 2 or 3m and I would miss all of the other information. So I do have some limited central vision and I would. You start just to see immediately in front of me. But as soon as I started using the mobility cane, I could look up and I could see so much more like where the traffic lights were, and if there was a car coming at me and that sort of thing. So it was actually really liberating once I started using the mobility cane, and I just regret a little bit that I hadn't started using it before.

16:13S2

Something that I've encountered in previous episodes actually, is some people have said coming out as having a disability is pretty much like, you know, "coming out", as it were. Was that part of the issue, why you didn't want a cane?

16:28S4

It wasn't necessarily that, like, I had no issue telling people that I was blind. But for me, I think one of the things I struggled with was the idea that I felt like I wasn't blind enough. So if you were to look at me at face value, it doesn't look like I'm disabled. It doesn't look like I'm blind. I'm also moderately deaf and my hearing aids are a bit hard to see, so people wouldn't notice that I would be disabled if they were just having a conversation with me. But it's only until I start trying to walk from A to B and start trying to navigate in a crowd, and then I start like bumping into things, stuttering, walking slowly. Yeah, and that's when people start to think, not Oh, is he disabled? It's like, Oh, what's wrong with him? Is he okay? Is he an alcoholic? That sort of thing. Right. And it's just really, really bizarre that that's the perception. 

So I used to struggle with the idea that I wasn't blind enough, and I didn't want to announce it to the whole world. And the reality once I started using it, is it just the quality of life? Improvement is just so huge. It's so amazing, like my superpower as well. One of the things that happens is it kind of feels like the people just part ways for you, and it's like, it's just as if you're Moses and the river is parting way for you. It's crazy like to to go through life struggling with crowds and then to suddenly have all of the crowds part in the middle for you is just really, really amazing. And people are kind to you. It's just, yeah, it's been really a positive experience. 

So yeah, I would really encourage people that if they are I guess a little bit blind or they have need of a mobility cane, but they're just a little bit reluctant to like announce it by, you know, having it and using it in public. Just try it like once or twice. And then by the fifth time, you just stop caring that what other people think of you and like the quality of life is just so much better.

18:31S2

You said your sight has been deteriorating. Was it noticeable that it was deteriorating or, has it just been something that's sort of slowly crept up like the the frog in the proverbial boiling water?

18:44S4

It's certainly been a very slow process. So my degeneration has been a very slow process. And the way I can tell that it's getting worse is when I start to lose some of the things that I used to do. So for me, the most noticeable change over the last ten years has been my sensitivity to light. So I'm very heavily reliant on using sunglasses. And now I'd say over the last two years, the sensitivity to the shading of the sunglasses now is starting to matter. So I used to not be able to see in sunlight as well as... at nighttime or in low light. I could only see in the shades. And now there's different levels of shades where it's difficult to me for me to see as well. 

So I'm noticing that I've always had a very restricted peripheral vision. So I've always had to rely on central vision. But now, yeah, sunlight sensitivity is one thing and also color sensitivity. So I don't try to guess what color I'm looking at anymore. I usually just look for a label or ask someone...

19:50S2

Oh yeah, no, you're talking to someone who's actually colourblind. Well, the blue cone  behind my eye actually doesn't work, so my color vision is completely weird. So, often I'll be out and about and say, Oh, I like that blue thing over there. And my wife will say, It's red. So, exactly. So it's just a case. It's good that you're actually very comfortable with yourself as far as that goes now as well, because, I mean, some people do try to hide it and they do sort of think, have you had any negative experiences though, of having a disability?

20:21S4

Yes, I would say especially when I didn't have a mobility cane, I would have those instances of, me bumping into something or cutting into a line unknowingly or being in the way. And because, people are unaware that I'm vision impaired, they would, you know, assume the worst. And so there have been a couple of, I guess, altercations there. And that's before I used a mobility cane. So that's stopped now, which is great. But then also I've had a couple of close calls with road accidents and that sort of thing. So I haven't likely been hit, but I have had a few instances where I thought I looked and I thought I checked and I thought it was okay to cross the road. And then the next millisecond later, there's a car right beside me, the bumpers, like right at my knee. And I'm like, what? I thought I looked and I checked and it was clear, but I guess not. And so that was one of the other instances that prompted me to use a mobility cane. So there was that. 

And then one of the other things as well is in my dance career, what I noticed was with the television shows, they did lean on my story of being disabled, as I guess a sob story, if you will, to feature me on some of the shows. And for me, the unfortunate thing about that was that I felt like it took away from all of the hard work and the training that I'd put into my shows, and into my dancing, where I felt like I was getting a pass because I had a sob story, not because I was as good as everybody else. And so that was one of those things as well, I think was a key point for me to not want to announce that I was disabled. And so maybe that's why I didn't use a mobility cane for so long, because I wanted to, like, shy away from that label, if you will.

22:16S2

You eventually left the world of dancing and made your parents, I'm guessing, a lot more happier and relieved by going back into the corporate world... Was there a thing that actually prompted you to... change that career?

22:33S4

Yeah. So, I mean, the reason I went into the corporate world was at the time, I had felt like I'd peaked in my dance career. I was featuring on TV shows, I was winning competitions, I was judging competitions. I felt like I was doing really well. But the reality of street dance in particular, because I'm a hiphop and a street dancer, was that there really wasn't a career or pathways for me to exist in Australia as an artist or as a professional dancer, and I couldn't see a way to make it work. And so my promise to myself back then was, okay, let's go into the corporate world. Let's see how it goes. Let's try to make some money, and maybe I might become really, really rich someday and become a patron for the arts. And all of that vision sort of came true except the getting rich part. 

So after a while, I had decided, you know what? I've had my stint in the corporate career, I think I did okay, I've learnt a lot, and I am really grateful for all of the skills and experience I picked up in a corporate banking world. But I did feel it was time for me to come back and try and start a dance company or a dance career, if you will, in the arts sector, which is now what I'm doing.

23:51S2

And what is this... mystery organisation called?

23:54S4
Yes. So the organisation is called Cypher Culture. That's C-Y-P-H-E-R, and it's a community arts organisation based in Victoria. And we support street dance and the communities and cultures that surround that. So in Victoria, there's probably about 15 grassroots street dance communities and collectives that we support and we work with. And amongst them, there's maybe 4 to 600 dancers that are practicing and we help deliver workshops. We partner these dancers in these communities with the creative industries. So we will run dance productions and big battles in exhibitions in public places like the State Library of Victoria, Sidney Myer Music Bowl, Arts in Melbourne, University of Melbourne, places like that to really try and make street dance more visible just so that we have more representation in the sector and in the world, because at the moment it's very much underground and there's quite, I guess, the struggle for emerging artists and dancers to come up.

25:02S2

Are you very much a hands-on kind of person as far as this goes, or do you leave a lot of the, I do have a lot to do, say, with dancers and that nowadays, or are you more into sort of just creating the opportunities through paperwork and etc.? I'll find the right way of saying it. 

25:21S4

Yeah, I would say I'm a little bit of both. I guess the majority of my work is operational. So inside the culture, I'm the executive director. And I do have an artistic director who has been practicing a lot as a dancer and as a producer of events and activities. But the skill set that I bring from the corporate world and my life experience is really in operational governance strategy, risk management, those sorts of things. So I try to bring that to the table just so that there's a diversity of skills.

25:56S2

Has anyone sort of crossed your desk that sort of reminds you of you, of a younger you all the time?

26:02S4

Like, I'm not able to compete anymore at the level that I used to. And so every time there's a dance event, and I'm watching, I always have that inkling feeling and that envy that I'm not up there dancing myself. So I do wish that I could, but my body doesn't agree with it anymore, unfortunately.

26:24S2

Yeah. So I get that every four years during the during a Paralympic year, I sort of look up there and go, gee, I'd love to do that again. But I think I'd like to go to another Paralympics, but I don't want to necessarily do the things that I need to do to get there. I suspect you'd be the same way.

26:43S4

Yeah, I did try recently, and I did do a couple of months of conditioning to try and get match fit and, and my first training session trying one of my signature moves, I pulled an injury that put me out for six weeks, and then the next competition that came up, I injured myself again just in training. And then. Yeah, I realised then that it probably was time for me to not be so serious, at the competitive level and not aspire to try and be the best or number one or try to win. And it took a bit of, I guess, soul searching and self-talking to pivot, I guess, my desires to just creating good memories and having a good time and dancing for myself rather than trying to like, win a competition and get all the external validation that comes with that.

27:35S2

As we are going out on a disability radio station, if anyone wanted to get your help and they had happen to have a disability, I'm taking it. You are inclusive as far as that goes.

27:48S4

Yes. So, street dance is really inclusive. One of the great things about street dance is it's so improvisational and it's so unique, and it's very rewarding to people that bring something different. And so there are so many different dance forms and styles. There are styles where you're just using your fingers to create shapes, and that's called finger tutting. Other styles where say for example, with breaking, there are a couple of breakers around the world that have one leg that are just absolutely doing so well in the circuit. Just really showing what's what people can be really capable of, with just one leg being able to fly around and spin around at speed. And it's just really, really inspiring to see. So I think street dance has that advantage where it's so inclusive and it's also very accessible, financially as well. Like the communities are on the streets. It's normally outside of institutions like dance studios or dance companies and that sort of thing. So it's very accessible and inclusive.

28:56S2

Do you have anyone crossing over either from or to other dance styles? 

29:02S4

Yes... so we get people coming from our communities into the contemporary and professional world, sometimes because that's where the work is, but other times that's just what they love as well as a dancer and vice versa. A lot of people from the ballet contemporary world will be curious about the street dance world and our freestyle culture and... take a look and try a class or two or come to an event and just dabble with the idea of street dance. So, yeah, there's that cross-cultural connection every now and then. But yeah, I'd love to get even more of that.

29:41S2

So if people want to know more about Cypher Culture, where would we find out more?

29:48S4

So best place to contact us or find out what we're up to is on Instagram. And that's at Cypher Culture underscore. So at Cypher Culture underscore. And on our Instagram page we will have a calendar of all the street dance events that are happening in Victoria, as well as a timeline of all of the open free street dance community sessions that are happening around Victoria as well.

30:17S2

Geoffrey Lim, it has been fun talking to you and educational as well, so thank you for contacting us.

30:24S4

No worries. Thanks so much Sam. It's been a pleasure.

30:27S2

So before we go today we will be doing a few special podcast presentations of some of our older shows. These will be in a one hour format. And the reason for that is I've got a new nifty piece of software that I can use to enhance people's speaking. And I mean, Lizzie, you've heard how this thing works. I mean, it's pretty impressive.

30:51S3

Yeah, I love it. I think it's amazing. I mean, turning a dodgy recording into something that's pretty much crystal clear. It's great, I love it, I wish I knew how to work it.

31:01S2

Ah, well, that's that's coming. I'm really so. Yes. So the first, um, podcast presentation we'll be doing is a one hour version of Dating Blind. We will take all interviews from all three shows that we did on the subject. Put them all together and they will be available to podcast in the next couple of weeks or so.

31:20S3

I think it's perfect, actually, because then we can link shows together that are sort of related.

31:25S2

That is the general idea. That's right. Yes, but that's a wrap for this week. Thank you to Geoffrey Lim.

31:31S3

And of course, thanks for listening.

31:33S2

Next week we will actually be looking at the NDIS. The scheme we can't live without is also apparently being rorted. We look at our experiences and ask what changes can be made.

31:44S3

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

32:00S2

Our email address is studio1@visionaustralia.org ... that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

32:05S3

Or you can drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com slash VA Radio Network. We want to hear from you.

32:13S2

But bye for now.

32:15S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.