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This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.
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Hello, I'm Sam and I'm Lizzie, and this is Studio One, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio. On this [program]...
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Week's show, we.
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Put jujutsu on the backburner for a week and talk to former Disability Discrimination Commissioner, Chancellor of Central Queensland University, human rights lawyer and appreciator of fine wine Graeme Innes.
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As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio One, or whether you think that there's something we should be talking.
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About, you never know. Your story and insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar. Please contact us by email. Studio one at Vision australia.org. That's studio one at Vision Australia.
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Org well, perhaps drop us a note on our Facebook page - that's facebook.com - slash - VA Radio Network.
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We want to hear from you. From time to time we do our research into various topics and people have noticed this week we're not actually covering jury duty. We'll be getting on to that next week. But one of the things that I was after was an expert on the subject, and there are a few names that crossed my list, but one of them was one that stood out to me. In particular, when I say that somebody is a chancellor at a major university. There has been a discrimination commissioner and a top flight lawyer. Welcome, Graeme Innes. Thanks very much, Sam. Good to be here. I've got to admit. So the first time I'd heard about you was when you were first appointed. I was appointed or employed as a discrimination commissioner.
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Well, it's a statutory appointment. Yes.
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Yeah. And I sort of know I sort of thought to myself, oh, okay. An actual blind person being appointed in some way, they can probably do some good. But of course, the next time I heard about you was, um, being refused a taxi ride because of your guide dog. How long after your appointment was that?
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Well, it would depend which refusal you're talking about, Sam. It's, sadly, a regular event, and I think there was 2 or 3 when I was disability discrimination commissioner. There's been 2 or 3 more recently in Melbourne, which I've just taken up with the Victorian Department of Transport. But as many as most guide dog users would know, this is an event that occurs regularly.
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Why is this so? I mean, we're talking about the late 1990s, uh, when I first heard about it and we're sort of 25 years down the track, and it still seems to me the same thing. It doesn't seem to have changed.
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Well, I think it's so because of the ineffectiveness of the training of taxi drivers and rideshare operators, because it happens in Uber as well as in taxis and people just not accepting the law, which is that people with assistance animals can travel anywhere, including in rideshare.
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Does the law itself have any teeth regarding this?
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Well, it does, but they're not often used. So yes, there are fines that can be imposed and people can be removed from, uh, rideshare platforms and have their licences suspended, but the laws are rarely used. So, um, you know, it's it's like a lot of criminal offences because there's a high bar to prove them. You have to prove things, beyond the, beyond reasonable doubt. Then, um, uh, authorities who are strapped for cash are reluctant to run prosecutions. And so there's, you know, drivers get away with it. And, because drivers are aware of this, then they're more prepared to break the law.
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I mean, the workaround that I've heard about nowadays really is that, yeah, majority of Guide Dog uses that. I do know if they're ordering an Uber, for example, they'll get an Uber pet because there's less of a chance of it being turned down. But I mean, that means that they're paying more.
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They're paying more, and they're taking longer because there are far fewer of those vehicles available. So that's not a workaround that I choose to use. But I have heard of people doing that. There was for a while, a process on Uber where you could identify as a guide dog user. But I really haven't seen that, um, make much difference. So, I think that's sort of fallen into disrepair now. I'm not sure, but these reviews will still occur. And, um, those of us who to whom they do occur, the only way we're going to fix the problem is by challenging it and getting the authorities to take more actions and to publicise those actions.
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That's the beauty of having somebody of a relatively high profile like yourself, I suppose, is that you've you've got the ability to speak out on things like that. I mean, as you've said in the past, you've been refused access to a taxi or an Uber on a number of different occasions, but perhaps a qualified lawyer and a chancellor of a university might be heard more than just, say, any other, um, guide dog user.
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I think it's more numbers than than than who the person is, Sam. So, the number of people who complain, who push back, who report to the authorities, that's what will make the difference. Really? So we all have some level of, well, it shouldn't be a responsibility, but I suppose a bit of a duty to pursue these complaints.
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So let's go back a bit now. So some some basics here. Have you always been blind?
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Yes, I was born blind.
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And is there a particular eye condition or. Um.
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Uh, the the doctors had long discussions about it. I'm not. Very interested. Um, to be honest, that's the way it is. And it's not changing. So, you know, I conditions are not something that I get into very much.
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Sometimes when going on to the NDIS, people are asked to see an up, you know, ophthalmologist and it's like, well, they're not going to tell you much about my eye condition, considering I've got a pair of eyes that don't work.
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Well, I suppose the NDIS do need to know that when you originally apply and they need some, um, confirmation of that. There used to be a process where they where they got people to, um, you know, to do it every couple of years. But I think that has now stopped it.
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I hope so, unless we've got some miracles happening here. But we'll go back. We'll continue along a bit further. So you've got a series of very impressive academic qualifications. Now, when did you do your university?
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I went to university from 74 to 77, so quite a while ago. And I wasn't the first blind person to go to Sydney University Law School. There had been a couple of others, but I was one of the early ones. And then I completed a College of Law in 1978 and found a job after that in 1979.
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What did a lot of that study involved? Because I, uh, for a while went out with a young lady that was studying law in Perth, and we're talking 1990s, and she would have copious amounts of books on cassette and things like that.
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And yes, I had, I went back a bit earlier than the cassette. I had mine on reel to reel tapes, and I had some material transcribed into Braille, and I used to whisper my notes into a cassette recorder at lectures. And then I wrote up my notes, which I found was a very useful aid memoir. And, um, and so I had a lot of folders of notes over the time of the course. I mean, basically, I knew that I would have access to less material than someone who could read in print. And so I worked out that what I needed to know do was know the material that I did have better than most other people. And that's how I got through the course.
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Was there much of a delay in getting, uh, stuff transcribed, or. I mean, did you get a lot of material before you needed it or what was the, um, no.
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There was delay. There certainly has always been delays in getting material transcribed for university students. And in fact, that issue was the the thing that first brought me to advocacy because I and a group of other uni students were experiencing delays, in getting our material and we lobbied well, then Royal Blind Society now in Australia to improve the process. And that was the first piece of real advocacy with which I was involved.
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If someone is studying now, someone who's totally blind, do you have a hint for them or a dead set, something that will actually work to get them through? Um, what is still quite a difficult course.
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Uh, well, I'm not so confident about material being available, um, on time. That's not the experience that I hear from university students around the country. But it's probably easier to get now with the access to the internet and databases and that sort of thing. I think my advice is that you'll never be able to get access to the breadth of material that other students can, or at least in the time in the same amount of time you won't be able to. So you really need to focus on your core materials and make sure that you know them very well. And the other advice that I give to uni students is by all means embark on these courses. I strongly encourage that. And I mentor a lot of young people who are taking on these courses. But it will be hard work and it will take up a lot of your time during the period of study. So it is a serious commitment to make.
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And then of course, there's afterwards, uh, getting a job out of it or even getting on the, uh, just to the start of things. I mean, how did you go, um, after university?
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Well, I had lots of problems getting a job after university. I spent six months, uh, going to about 30 interviews where, um, no employer would accept that a blind person could operate as a lawyer. And this is again mirrored. My experience is mirrored by many other people who are blind or have low vision. And eventually I started as a clerical assistant, which is the lowest level in the New South Wales public service. I actually started answering the telephone and telling people the winning lotto numbers, and of course you need a law degree to do that. And, uh, I was made redundant from that job by an answering machine. Uh, but I moved on to giving, uh, telephone advice in the Department of Consumer Affairs, first as a clerk. And then I got. Into the legal section as a clerk and then as a lawyer, because the head of the legal section wasn't sure whether I could do the job. But he was prepared to give me a shot at it, and that was my entry into a legal career.
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That is really what it comes down to, isn't it? You need to find somebody that is willing to take that chance. You don't have to convince them completely, but they've got to be all right. Anything's worth a try.
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Yeah. They have, and it's pretty sad. And the reason that that's the case is because as a community, we have a very negative and limiting view of people with disabilities and what we can achieve. And so we really need to change that view, but we won't change it. While, uh, people aren't getting into jobs or people with disabilities aren't seen on our TV screens, uh, or on our smartphone, uh, or tablet screens. So we've got to change that community view, because that's the big factor that limits so many people with disabilities.
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Talking of roles, I mean, you, uh, are now chancellor for Central Queensland University. Yeah. What does that involve? I mean, how did that happen?
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Well, I've been a company director for probably 40, 40 years. I first started, uh, when I was in my 20s as a director of, uh, Royal Blind Society. It became Vision Australia and the director of Blind Citizens Australia, as it then was. And, um, so I've been doing that for a long time. I'm quite an experienced company director. And the chancellorship of a university is really like the chair of the board, uh, of the organisation. And, uh, I was invited to be chancellor of Central Queensland University the year before last. And it's a post which I'm very much enjoying and, uh, loving the opportunity that it provides me.
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The university itself. I mean, is it what makes it different from, say, other academic areas?
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Well, it's a social purpose university, so it's a not for profit university. And its purpose is to support and educate students from disadvantaged backgrounds, people from regional areas, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, um, people with disabilities. And that's our whole purpose. So really that values set aligns very much with my values set. And so, uh, it's it's based in central Queensland. That's where its roots are. But it's actually got campuses all over the country, uh, campus in uh, Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, and it's got learning centres all over the country in WA and South Australia and Victoria, regional Victoria. And as I say, it's its whole purpose is to provide greater opportunities for people who come from some area of disadvantage.
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This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.
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Another one of your current roles is you are on the board of the India Now. In a previous interview, I'd stated that um, the NDIS and the Ndia have actually overtaken Centrelink. Now is the thing that blind people like to complain about.
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Yeah, okay. I'm not sure about that. I haven't really monitored that contest, but um, the Ndia, we need to remember that the NDIA is making huge differences in the lives of more than 600,000 Australians and, um, half of those at least had no services before the NDIS arrived. So we need to, um, always put the NDIA and the NDIS in context that it's making huge differences to people and to the quality of people's lives. That's not to say it's perfect. And I and uh, Kurt Fernley, the chair of the board and, and the others on the border and the senior leadership team at the NDIA are working hard to improve the organisation. There were some poor decisions made in the last 5 or 6 years, uh, which need to be re-examined, reassessed, and we're working with the minister, Bill Shorten, to turn the scheme around and make it an even better scheme. But it's already doing a fantastic job. So, you know, you hear complaints. But of course, that's like airline stories. The airline stories you hear are always, um, bad airline stories. They're not the good stories. And for the vast majority of people on the NDIS, they're very happy with the support they're receiving.
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Yes, I've worked in it, and it's very rare that people actually ring up to say that their computers working properly.
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Exactly right. Sam.
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That's right. Yeah. And so you're on the NDIS board, are you on the NDIS itself?
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I'm a scheme participant, yes. Ah.
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So I mean, yeah, I'll come clear as well. I definitely am as well. I've found that it is. Yeah. As you just said, it is life changing as somebody who has, I guess have a pretty good support network. What is the big things that you find that have sort of, you know, change the way you do things with India?
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Well, I've received, you know, support for the, for my guide dog, and the care and maintenance of my guide dog. So that's that's certainly been a change. I get a bit of support for some technology that I use, because the two major challenges I have are moving around effectively and accessing information. So it provides support there. And they're probably the key things in my plan.
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I have friends out there who say, all right, well, they've got a family, a very supportive family, and they do the majority of that sort of stuff for for them. What would you have to say about that? I mean, is it just just it's I'm trying to sort of find the right way of sort of saying it should it be up to friends and family to look after people like ourselves?
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Um, well, uh, I don't need anyone to look after me, whether it's friends or family or, um, or anyone else. What I need is some equipment and and sort of facilities, um, such as a guide dog, to get around and to enhance my access to communications. Um, some people don't have friends or family to provide that support. Um, and I didn't marry my wife or, um, or create my family to, uh, so that they would provide that sort of support. That's not their role. Their role is to be able to interact with me as a as a husband and as a dad. Uh, so I think it's quite appropriate for the Ndia to provide those supports in life, um, to people in those areas that I've talked about.
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Yeah. Here, I thought it would sounded better coming from you then. Coming from me. One of the other things, I mean, I've been doing meticulous study, mainly on your website. I've got to admit. So, um, the you, um, helped to pass the UN declaration for the rights of People with a disability in Australia that, uh. Have I got that? Exactly that. Right.
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Or I helped to craft the UN declaration is an international instrument, the UN instrument. And I was part of the Australian delegation, which helped to craft that. So, yes, that was a piece of work over a ten year period. And most of that I did while I was commissioner at the Australian Human Rights Commission. And I was very pleased to have that opportunity, to put that together. And it's the international law which guides the way we should interact with people with disabilities around the world.
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Why is there a separate declaration when I mean, we are all, after all, human beings?
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There are separate, different declarations that focus particular areas. Of relevance and disadvantage. So there's one on race is one on gender, there's one on disability, and then there's one on economic and social issues and cultural issues. So there's a range of international instruments that the UN has probably about ten, ten of them. And then they focus in particular areas. And the reason for doing that, rather than just having one declaration or convention, they're not declarations, they're conventions, is that if you take it out to two general level, then it's in very general terms and you don't get the focus and the detail that you need, for the specific groups that the convention is about.
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I suppose the more general you get, also, the more it can be interpreted or misinterpreted.
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Well, there's processes of legal interpretation, which apply to any instrument. It's more about getting that focus and detail that you need when you have an instrument in a particular area. I mean, we don't have one law that covers, you know, driving and theft. We have different laws in our Parliament that cover those things. And in the same way, we have different UN conventions to cover different areas of activity.
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You've not just been an advocate for disability. I mean, it's very easy to tar people with that brush when they have a disability or when they are a particular colour or something like that. But your advocacy has gone a lot deeper, hasn't it?
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Well, I'm a human rights lawyer, so I'm an advocate for disadvantaged groups. And, so yes, I've certainly been an advocate in the disability space, but I've also been an advocate in the area of same sex attraction, refugees and asylum seekers, people from different cultural and linguistic backgrounds. So, yes, I've, been in that broader human rights space.
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What would you say would be your greatest achievement then? Would be, uh.
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Work wise? Probably the, my contribution to the passage of the Disability Discrimination Act. Also my chairing of the inquiry which led to the change of 100 laws which discriminate, discriminated against people who were same sex attracted. They'd probably be my my two highlights. But, yeah, I've had the opportunity to do a lot of different things. And they're two examples.
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When the Disability Discrimination Act was passed, I was actually overseas, but then came back to find these things suddenly there is it still suitable for purpose now? And should it be updated?
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Yes, it should. And there's been a number of people, including the current commissioner, Rosemary Cass, who have called for its updating. It's over 30 years old now. No law can pass the the test of time for that long. So it does need refreshing. And there's a range of recommendations that were made by the disability royal commission last year towards that end. And, some others of us, I've just co-authored, an article with Natalie Wade to propose some significant changes to the Disability Discrimination Act. So it is time that that was looked at, and these matters have been raised with the Attorney-General, and hopefully it's on his list to address.
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It strikes me often that when you do face some form of discrimination, the first option there is. All right. We'll go into counselling. I mean, is that good enough? I don't, I mean, if you park in the wrong place, you don't get a letter sort of left on your... windscreen saying, hey, the council disagrees with where you've parked, we'd like to have a meeting about it.
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I think you mean conciliation, not counselling. Yes. And conciliation is the tool that is currently used throughout discrimination law. And one of the reasons for that is because discrimination law is about changing behaviours. And so, it's seen as a useful model, to take things in that direction. I think though, that too much responsibility is left with the person lodging the complaint. It's a bit like the assistance animals issue that we were talking about earlier in this conversation. And whilst I'm not opposed to the use of conciliation, I think there should be more some support for the complainant, in the process. And that relates to some of the recommendations that I've made for updating the legislation.
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So I notice on the, on your website, you list some of your pleasures as cricket, sailing and wine.
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Yeah, well, I enjoy dry white wine. And, I used to often have people as a thank you gift, give me a bottle of red wine. And my wife suggested that if I wanted to do something about that because I can't drink red wine, I should put it on my website. So I've done that. But yes, I'm a cricket tragic, Sam, and so I listen to a lot of cricket. Just been enjoying the women's Test in Perth and and I sail, in fact, our our boat. Three of us own... the boat is in Lake Macquarie at the moment, just north of Sydney. We'll be bringing it back later in the week, to its place in Sydney Harbour. So yeah, they they are the ways that I relax. The three ways that I relax, when I'm not working.
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Do you ever play cricket at all?
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Yeah, I played for New South Wales, for quite some time. Probably 15 years, when I was younger. And, well, I played in club cricket in Sydney and for New South Wales and kept wickets for New South Wales for quite some time.
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So that would be how you have got to know my colleague, Peter Greco, I'm guessing.
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Yes. Peter and I certainly competed on the cricket field but had a strong friendship off it.
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Graeme Innes, thank you. This has been a marvelous chat. So, I've enjoyed this. I think that you are an inspiration to us all. I know it sounds a bit condescending, I suppose, but you are. You are. It's fantastic to hear people out there fighting the good fight.
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Well, if I've encouraged others to, you know, follow along from some of the actions that I've had the opportunity to take, then I'm pleased about that. But when I started in the law, I wanted to make the world a better place. That was my reason for studying law, and hopefully I've been able to contribute to that in a few areas.
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That's a wrap for this week. Thank you to Graeme, who proved that if you ask a silly question to someone who's smart enough, you always get a sensible answer.
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And once again, thanks to you all for listening.
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Next week we go back to our scheduled program, and we talk about jury duty and how it affects vision impaired and blind people.
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Between now and then. Please feel free to get in touch with the show, whether you have experience with any of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know.
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Your story and insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar. Our email address is studio one at Vision Australia-dot-org, that's studio1@visionaustralia.org
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Well, perhaps leave a note on our Facebook page that's facebook.com, slash VA Radio Network. Bye for now.
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Visio Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio One.
