Is Braille dead?

00:04S1

This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.

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Hello, I'm Sam.

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And I'm Lizzie.

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And this is Studio One, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio.

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On this week's show.

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We ask the question, Is Braille dead?

00:28S3

With the advent of audio and other alternatives, many have predicted Bio's demise. But for International Broadway, we talked to a few people who think there's life in the old Perkins.

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Yet, as we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this episode of Studio One, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and your insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.

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You can email us at studio One at Virgin Australia Morgue. That's a studio one of is in australia.org.

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Or perhaps drop us a note on the station's Facebook page. We want to hear from you.

01:07S3

Hello. How are you going, Sam?

01:09S2

I am going. Good. We're into a new year. And if you're downloading the podcast, it's international Braille Day.

01:17S3

It certainly is. And I believe we are going to have a chat to a few people who still use Braille, and people who still use the old Perkins Braille. I know for a fact that I do.

01:27S2

In fact, you've only just used it. What happened there?

01:31S3

Well, I got a digital copy of something that I needed to have rolled out and forgot to do it at home, so I had to borrow the station's Perkins Braille and quickly jot it down. So I do think there's still room in in, uh, for the old Perkins Brailler in our lives.

01:46S2

It was an interesting sight to see because Peter hasn't used this since the Covid pandemic. So there was dust flying as well as the sound of cracking keys.

01:55S3

It was a little bit stiff and sore, I can assure you of that. I think it needs a good dusting and maybe a little bit of a service.

02:01S2

So if you're listening, Peter. Hint, hint.

02:03S3

Yes, go get it checked out.

02:05S2

So what does Braille mean to you? I mean I don't really use it. I don't even understand it. Unfortunately, it can't even sight readers. But, uh, what does it actually mean to you as a user?

02:14S3

Well, I find that it's easier to, uh, memorize things to retain things to memory when using Braille. I like to read books in braille because I feel like I'm actually reading the story. I guess it's the same as when you read print versus listening to audio. You can absorb more of the content into your brain. Also, as a musician, I like to read Braille music and to learn pieces. And you can't learn everything by ear. Some things you need the notations for. So I actually use Braille quite a lot in my life. Still, I use the old Perkins to jot down things I want to remember and uh, obviously to read Braille music and books.

02:53S2

I can understand where you're coming from there because I still like to read, you know, uh, listening to things on audio is convenient and you don't end up with eyestrain, for example. Um, uh, I take things in completely differently when I'm reading something. I think what happens is when somebody reads a work of fiction or whatever, they're reading it and they're interpreting it the way that they want to interpret it, so it loses something there. Whereas if you're reading something there, you've got that extra thing in your mind about, you know, you've got the extra control of the images that come through.

03:27S3

Yeah. That's it. I mean, you can then interpret things the way you want. But I also remember when I used to go to university, I would take lecture notes on my iPad, but then when I went home, if there were page numbers of readings and things that I had to remember for, for referencing later on in assignments, I would actually braille them down so that I would remember them and any important notes or topics or points that I wanted to remember for the future, I would break them down. Also, just because I think like anything, if you can read it, if it's right there in front of you for your eyes or fingers to observe, it's easier for you to remember or to recall later on.

04:04S2

I've always thought also that in some ways, people that don't read Braille are missing out on something because it's not just a form of writing, it really is just a it's a different form of language, isn't it?

04:14S3

Yeah, I definitely, definitely. And it's funny, like when you say that when I'm trying to picture how to spell a difficult word and I'm trying to recall how to spell it, I always see it in Braille in my head, and that's really interesting. I, you know, I'll see words and phrases and sentences in my head. But I think the downside to Braille, if there is one, is that you have contractions to make words shorter. Otherwise, if you were to braille things the way that you read them in print, with each letter being represented by a Braille character, it would take up so much room. So we have these contractions. As a result, there are a lot of people whose spelling isn't the best because they know how to write the word, but they forget what the contractions stand for, and so they forget how to spell longer words.

05:02S2

So that is what we think. How about we ask a few other people?

05:05S3

Earlier we caught up with Michael Zenos.

05:13S2

Tell us what your job is.

05:14S4

I am a braille and assistive technology specialist. Therefore, anything to do with Braille? Uh, VoiceOver on iPhone Jaws or Nvda. I will assist people with whether it be to support them to actually purchase the item through their NDIS support systems, or work with them for some training.

05:37S2

Okay, so what does Braille itself mean to you?

05:41S4

Braille is a way of communicating for anyone who has degenerative eyesight or has no eyesight. So ultimately, we'll have no functioning eyesight to be able to read browser communication method, which allows you to interact with other people, whether it be for studying employment or whether it be just for your own writings. But these days, with technology, you can utilize Braille in a refresh or braille display with a laptop computer set up and be able to access the internet and be able to read and read what you're writing through the net.

06:26S3

So with the advent of text to speech, software and audio and other alternatives, do you think that Braille is a dying art form, or do you think that there is still a demand for Braille?

06:38S4

Not only is there a demand for its ever expanding audio is okay if you're reading, but you're not going to get any kind of understanding of grammar. If you want to be employed, then you must know how to put together, you know, um, text which has grammar in it and be able to write something up which is readable by others. So to do that, you must have a communication method which can teach you grammar, layout, do all those kind of things through an audio text. There's no way of actually building up that picture of what's required to make text look like anyone else has produced it or, you know, is reading it. So that's the that's the big advantage that Braille has over text to speech, no text to speech product. You can dictate into it and be 100% accurate. That's just impossible to use. Whether it be Apple suite of products on an iPhone, Jaws or Nvda, you can do a bit of dictating using Jaws. That's very cumbersome and difficult. Where Braille. Once you're acquired at school, you can be faster than most people touch typing.

08:04S2

One of the problems is, though, is that I mean, for example, I can't understand Braille.

08:08S4

So you don't have to.

08:10S2

So so what is available out there to take something from something you can understand to something like that I can understand.

08:17S4

So with a refresher braille displays. So a laptop computer has got all the functions of a laptop computer just with a pro keyboard. So someone who understands Braille can marry up both their brain knowledge and computer knowledge and be able to operate that way forward. So the pro they can use their Braille skills to browse into it, to type away into the computer, and then it comes up on the screen in braille to be able to read it for them. So you don't nobody has to learn braille with sight, that is, or who doesn't require it, because it still can come out on a screen with print. Or you can email someone using Braille. I can use Braille email to you. You read it the way that you want to do it, especially those with degenerative eye conditions, non-functioning eye conditions, or totally, totally blind. And once you learn bro, you can type a set faster than anyone else can touch type. So that's the advantage that Braille has, especially now with technology.

09:24S2

So I see here that you've got the old Perkins out. Do you use that very often?

09:29S4

Yeah, absolutely. So we always start with the Perkins for people to start with because you get immediate feedback. So it's a Perkins Braille is a basically a braille which is a touch. So you push down the keys just like you would with a manual old fashioned typewriter. So yes. Is it clunky? Yes. Is it heavy? All of those things? Most definitely. But what it does do is it provides you instant copy. So just like someone grabbing a pencil and pen and writing down a note, someone who can't see pushes these keys down, they get Braille straight away. And as a teacher, I can check it. And. Support the person to move forward as quickly as possible. Once their skills are adequate and everything's moving forward. Then I encourage people to use the technology aspect of it. Let's use computers to with Braille and have them fully functional, able to do as many things as possible. These days, not only can you use these laptop computers with braille screens just for emailing and word processing. No, you can use it for media, you know, so you can play things. You know, you can use it in a variety of different ways, whether it be clocks, alarms, your calendars, everything that a computer laptop can do now comes into a browser format.

11:00S3

So just for anyone that might be listening to this program, could you run us through some of the more recent devices that have come out onto the market in terms of refresh braille displays or, um, devices that are compatible with laptops?

11:14S4

Yeah. So there's a there's a few, um, simply Braille note touch plus from human where you're browsing six from Pacific Vision. More and more these days it's moving towards and this is where the movement is now going. Not only are you getting one line of braille coming up and it changes, but you're now getting larger screens. So up to sort of 10 to 13, 15 lines worth of, of Braille. So you can now do tactile drawings on them and almost get immediate responses. So no longer does someone have to slave away doing graphs and or pie charts and build them up manually or draw them up. No, these days you can draw them up. You know someone with sight can draw them up, send it through the program on this machine, and it comes up as a tactile picture that anyone you know can feel and anyone can see. So that's where the advancements of, of braille and tactile equipment is going to.

12:23S2

I've had Braille compared to a different language. I mean, what would you think of that?

12:27S4

No, I absolutely is always considered a language in and of itself. So when we when we actually put down Braille, we actually do it with a capital base that's absolutely considered a language, and it's most definitely the ultimate best way forward for someone who is blind, deaf. If you're losing your sight and your hearing, Braille provides you a tactile way forward that you don't need to rely on anyone else. If you can use Braille with your laptop computer, then you can email people using your browse skills. You know what you've brought in. There's a screen which is coming up with brow. You can read it if you're completely deaf or visually sighted or completely do not have any site, you don't have to rely on any other support worker. Anything else? You can do it completely independently yourself and remain in complete control. Brough provides people with control over what they're producing instead of having to be reliant upon others.

13:32S2

So that was our chat with Michael Zanes. Uh, I've known Michael for a very long time, since he was all of 15. And, uh, so he's no more a, uh, dedicated, um, person to the whole thing. What did you think, Lizzy?

13:47S3

Well, I thought it was very insightful speaking to him, and he actually shared a lot of the same opinions as I do regarding the use of Braille when it came to recording and observing things that were written down.

13:59S2

So the next person we are talking to is Bill Jolley. And, uh, judging from when I've spoken to him in the past, it doesn't take much to get him to talk. Bill, you've got an interesting relationship with Braille, don't you?

14:19S5

Well, Sam, I've used Braille ever since I was a little kid. So being blind since birth, I grew up with Braille. And I will say Braille is the bedrock of my literacy. So when I was a kid, I used it for reading storybooks and school textbooks. And then it was very important in my study of mathematics. I had all my lecture notes written in Braille, and I would write out my assignments in Braille as well. And then as an adult, I've read books in Braille and use braille for notetaking. So it's been very important to me.

14:59S2

Now we were talking off here, and you have been involved for the last 30 odd years or so in the unification of English Braille. So what absolutely fascinates me is so what? There was no agreement on the format and how things were structured before that.

15:16S5

The Braille system was developed by Louis Braille in France. He was born in 1809. And right now, around about now, it's the anniversary of his birth and of his death in 1852. He developed the system, and then gradually it spread to be used in pretty well every country. By the turn of the century, there was a Braille code well established and used in Australia. For example, in the United Kingdom and the United States were still settling on which tactile code for reading it would use, and by 1932 the United States has established the Braille standard. American Braille would be used.

16:05S2

So it was that different to the. What we mean is like American Sign Language, for example, which is actually different to what we see in Australia.

16:12S5

For all practical purposes, the the Braille used for uh, literary uh material was the same in the United Kingdom and the United States, and therefore it was the same in other English speaking countries Canada, Australia, New Zealand and then other places like sort of India, Nigeria, South Africa, where where English was commonly used. However, the codes for mathematics and computer science were different, and the English had one code developed in England and the Americans had another code, and that was for mathematics and science. And then similarly, the codes for computer science material, uh, evolved separately, and the English code was a bit more like the one used in Europe. And, uh, the American one was, uh, similar to the or based on or you could say a subset of the mathematics code. So it was realized then that there was a, a major problem with these, uh, codes and that for different reasons, the rules of Braille in America, uh, needed some revision and the rules of Braille in England, for, uh, different reasons, needed uh, revision with England, for example, traditionally in England, they didn't use capital signs in Braille or they didn't use capital letters. So all English Braille was written just with lowercase letters. They didn't really have a way of representing uppercase letters. And so that's the way we started in Australia too. Okay. But but when there was integration of blind children into mainstream schools, it was realized that it was important that, uh, children learnt how to capitalize words and, and the correct placement of capital letters. So the Australian, for instance, we changed over in the sort of the 1970s, 1980s to use capital signs in braille in England didn't change over until perhaps into the, uh, the 1990s and the 2000 to use uh, capital signs. America, however, had been using capital signs for a long time. So that was an example of where there was significant, uh, divergence and the project then. So let me go back a step. A number of countries had what they called braille authorities. So in Australia there was the Australian Braille Authority, Braille Authority of North America, Braille Society of United Kingdom, etc. I was involved with the Australian Braille Authority. So just briefly, how that came about was that back in the 1980s, 1981 to 1986, I worked. In Sydney for six years as manager of computerised braille production at the Royal Institute for Deaf and Blind Children, which is now known as Next Sense, and this was when using a computer to produce Braille was quite revolutionary, and the system that we had was really the, the and the the second system to be sold outside of, uh, the United States, I think one was in Canada, then there was ours. So it was a world leading application of computer technology to produce Braille. With that involvement, I was then involved with the formation of organization called the Roundtable on Information for people with disabilities, which had a subcommittee which was the Australian Braille Authority. So then I was involved with that for some years in the 80s and through the 90s, etc., and these Braille authorities, then if we go to the international level from, uh, seven countries Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United States, United Kingdom, South Africa and Nigeria formed what was known as the International Council on English Braille, and I attended a number of their general assemblies as an Australian delegate, and I was treasurer of the ICB for eight years up until 2016. So the main project of the International Council on English Braille was this unification project to unify the rules of Braille, primarily across the Atlantic. But but in the smaller countries that use Braille Australia, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, etc. and so that project was completed in about 2005, or it achieved a substantial, uh, milestone. And work still continues refining the code for mathematics. But it is a big breakthrough in that essentially there is one code, and that code addresses all the local dealers of of different countries in South Africa. The code has to be consistent with 11 other braille codes used for 11 indigenous languages in uh, South Africa and uh in New Zealand. It needs to be able to accommodate the, uh, the Maori language or some of the Maori words that are used in English. And also now Ireland is a member of the International Council on English Braille.

21:50S2

Braille is talked of more as a language as opposed to simply a writing style. So it's clearly not dead because a dead language would not evolve. And Braille is continuing to evolve, isn't it?

22:02S5

Well, it is, yes. Yes it is. Um, we tend to talk of as braille, as a code or a system for reading and writing. Not, not not as a language, because a language, uh, has, has other implications that that don't apply to braille. Braille, I think, is most important in an education environment for assisting children to gain their literacy skills and, uh, in particular to learn to spell correctly. And it's also important in the study, as I say, of, of, uh, maths and science and, and for learning, reading. But a lot of work can be done now on using a keyboard and synthetic speech. And so a lot of adults, it's not as important as it was for adults to learn braille, but because they've already got their literacy. But it is is important for children now, recognizing that Braille is critically important in supporting the education of blind children and and also that the curriculum and the style of presentation of materials is changing. And there's a lot more use of, uh, visuals in, in textbooks. Then Braille has to keep up with that. So we have to sort of look at designing Braille symbols for all the little shapes, circles and triangles and other things that's used in, say, mathematics and English, juniors, primary school textbooks, you know, fill in the missing letters shown by a circle. That sort of question or five plus square equals 12. What is the value of the square, that sort of thing. So we have to have symbols for all those things which were not used that much when I was at school. But they're used, uh, much more now. So Braille has had to evolve to meet those changing demands of the, uh, of the education system, of the teaching methodology and the curriculum content.

24:12S2

So from a personal standpoint. I mean, what do you find the differences between reading and writing in Braille and for example, using a program like Jaws or something like that?

24:23S5

If I want to study text closely, I like to have it in Braille. But that's perhaps to some extent because I've always used Braille. It was my native communication medium, but also being a mathematician and working in the area of maths and statistics and writing computer programs, it was much easier to do that writing initially in Braille. So working out complex equations or writing code the Braille is is very good for that. On the other hand, I can read much faster using the Jaws screen reader and synthetic speech than I can reading Braille. So for accessing a newspaper's doing emails, then I'm very comfortable using the synthetic speech, and I find that that's that's more efficient. So in a sense that means that for some users that Braille may not be their their their first preference. And so the place of Braille changes, but it doesn't in general terms, it doesn't get supplanted by it. But uh, priorities change and the optimal formats to use change depending on a person's, uh, part of their life cycle. You could say.

25:50S2

Something I've noticed since I've started working for Vision Australia Radio, is that there are some people out there who are absolutely passionate about Braille. I mean, as in, you know, they will fight tooth and claw over. If I were to ask something as provocative is is Braille did, uh, they would they would fight tooth and claw. What's the reason for that passion, do you think? Oh, I.

26:10S5

Think it's it's that Braille is important to us because, as I say, it's the bedrock of our literacy. And for a long time, and particularly without the advent of the note taker devices or the the braille displays, Braille was expensive to produce. And therefore there was an added scarcity of material in braille. And there was therefore a, a a sense from people that they appreciate having material in Braille and will defend the sort of their right, uh, to, to be able to access, uh, Braille. So it becomes, I think, sort of an emotional thing. And yes, many people are, uh, passionate about Braille, and rightly so, because it is definitely important, especially in that education environment. But also the other group for whom Braille is very important are the musicians. And quite a number of blind people are musicians. And and if they're going to learn music or read music while they're performing, like singing or read the words particularly, I suppose that needs to be in Braille. So it's not really a good substitute for Braille in that sense.

27:33S2

Do you still have an old style Perkins Brailler yes.

27:35S5

I do, I have to wow.

27:37S2

Uh, how old are they?

27:38S5

One of them is, uh, nearly coming up to its 60th birthday, and the other one is about 50.

27:44S2

Wow. Okay.

27:45S5

And and the one that's nearly 60 is in fine fettle and condition. It hasn't, uh, I don't think it's ever been to the repair shop, and it's it's performed faultlessly over all those years.

27:58S2

I'll take it. You also use the new stuff. The vegetable displays? Yes, yes.

28:01S5

Yes, I do. But for instance, I'll use the Perkins Brailler in December, uh, for writing on some Christmas cards and also perhaps for, uh, just some other notes that I want to make. I'll write that on the Perkins Brailler if it's a longer document, I would have that on the computer, and then I would emboss that using a what's called a Braille embosser, which is functionally equivalent to a printer. But instead of printing ink onto the paper, it produces dots into the paper.

28:31S2

Sort of like your old style word processor. But, uh, yeah, with a with raised bits.

28:36S5

With a, uh, with a printer.

28:39S2

Bill Jolliffe, thank you very much.

28:41S5

Thanks, Sam.

28:46S2

So that was Bill Jolley. Uh, I had no idea that capital letters is a comparatively new thing. I mean, Lizzie, this would have been, um, something you've always had, I suppose, when you learned Braille.

28:58S3

Oh, for sure. Ever since I started learning braille at the age of five, we had capital letters, obviously, to signify the beginning of sentences or if someone's name was being used. But that was absolutely fascinating to find out that they didn't have that in place before the 80s. So my question would. B how were they able to signify things like a noun or the beginning of a sentence?

29:20S2

So, dear listener, if you learned Braille in the 60s or the 70s, please let us know. This is absolutely fascinating. Whereas Michael said, yes, Braille is a language Bill was more into. No, no, it is a code system. So there's a slight difference in opinion there.

29:38S3

It's just amazing to hear the differences in opinions as to whether Braille is a language or a code, or a form of communication, and how people use it in their everyday lives.

29:48S2

I think it's absolutely vital for people that want to express themselves, that want to have the experience of reading. So I don't think it's dead by a long talk. And I think that it supplements other things like the audio features. But I mean, without being able to see an inadvertent commas a word, then this is the next best thing. And in some ways it's better because you're taking it in through your fingers, opposed to these unreliable things that we sighted people have called eyes.

30:19S3

I don't know that they're unreliable, but, um, yeah, for sure. And as we've discussed a bunch of times in this episode, is the fact that when you see something in front of you or in our case, when you feel something in front of you, it's a lot easier to conjure up images in your brain. I know when I read audiobooks or versus Braille books, when I'm reading the Braille, I can really interpret and get into the imagery of what's happening in the book, and I'm really absorbed by the storyline.

30:48S2

But the question remains, is Braille dead? Well, here's some people we asked earlier.

30:56S6

Did you just ask, is brow dead? Did you just say, is brow dead? Over my dead body. I'll give you six points. There's six dots to a brow cell. Actually, eight with the computer brow. And now with multiline brow refresh with brow displays. Multi lines of points. But I'll give you six points. Why brow is important. And if you don't believe me, just listen to these and tell me. None of these are important. Literacy. Mathematics. Music. Education. Employment. Independence. Try and argue with any of those six dots and tell me Braille is dead or Braille is not important. It is very much a current and very much refreshing and, um, keeping up with the times with the refresh will, brow displays and also the multi-line braille displays, which are now becoming, uh, almost a reality, probably in the next year or maybe even less than a year. Many people will have access to them. So Braille is very, very important, though it's a big hit in the 1970s by a band called Alive and Kicking. Tighter. Hold on. Just a little bit tighter. I'm certainly holding on very tight to my brow displays, to my brow books and think brow I'm hanging on is brow dead. It's alive and kicking. It's alive and thriving.

32:23S2

Is Braille dead? Is it nowhere near it?

32:26S4

Nowhere near. It's expanding. There's more opportunities than ever before with the convergence, with technology. It's alive, it's kicking, it's thriving. It's moving forward at a rate of knots, which is absolutely brilliant to make sure that we have people with non-functioning eyesight having the same opportunities as anyone else. That's what it's always been about. It's we are people who cannot see. We're still people and we deserve opportunities just like anyone else.

33:02S2

So that is it for our first show for 2024. A really big thank you to Peter, to Michael, and of course to Bill. And we'll be back next week with, well, a cooking competition.

33:16S3

That's right. And of course, we have to say thanks to the listeners as well for listening.

33:20S2

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. What's the email address again?

33:24S3

Lizzie, studio one at Virgin Australia.

33:26S2

Org, that's studio one at Vision Australia. Org.

33:33S4

He's a beautiful man. He's done a lot for so many of us around the world. I do wish Mr. Louis Braille a very happy. And yet he's a very old man over 200 years old. Very happy birthday.

33:47S1

Virgin Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio One.