Hailo, See Me?

00:31S1

This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.

This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.

00:39S2

Hi, I'm Lizzie.

00:40S3

And I'm Sam.

00:41S2

And this is studio 1, Vision Australia Radio's weekly look at life on the blind and low vision point of view.

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On this week's show...

00:48S2

We road test one of the two apps that are under development to help people like us navigate public transport.

00:54S3

We also talked to the developer of both these apps. Santiago Velasquez and Cassie Haines are our guests.

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And as we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know your story. An insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

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Please contact us by email. studio1@visionaustralia.org ... That's studio - number one - at - Vision Australia - dot - org.

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Or you can drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com - slash - VA Radio Network.

01:30S3

Hello, Lizzy.

01:31S2

Hey, Sam, how are you going?

01:33S3

I am good, and we are not in the studio today.

01:36S2

No, no, we're out in the big wide world.

01:38S3

So having talked to Santi already, and you'll expect that later on, we're off on an adventure to test out the other app that's in production at the moment or in testing called Simi. And we've already managed to get lost. Well, I've already managed to get us lost, haven't I?

01:55S2

Yes, because you are quite forgetful with which stops. So we are meant to catch the bus from.

02:00S3

So we are aiming for stop... what was it, a A3? That's right. So yes, as I said, this is an adventure with me, Lizzy and Lacie as we test this app out. So it's directed us to stop A3 on King William Street. So that will be our next stop. So what are you looking forward to this? I mean what what do you think is going to be our experience anyway?

02:22S2

Well, given my experiences with technology, I don't want to say because I don't really want to jinx it, but hopefully we'll be able to hail down a bus and go and explore the city of Adelaide.

02:33S3

And then, well, we'll be relying on Lizzie to get us back again, which should be interesting as well, because yes, you've got the See Me app installed as well, don't you? I do, yep. Okay. All right. Off we go. We're joined by Santiago. Who? Well, you like to be called Santi, don't you?

02:53S4

It makes it a little bit easier for those non-Spanish speakers. Hi, guys. How are you?

02:58S3

We're good, but we are often facing a problem. And that is, if you're hailing a bus, the thing just goes straight past you. Or what has happened to me quite often is I'll hail a bus and it's the wrong bus. And the bus driver gets very, very grumpy with me. So I think you understand what I'm talking about here. And you've come up with a solution to it, haven't you? 

03:19S4

Very much so. And not only do I get grumpy sometimes, the bus that you do want drives past because they think, oh well, nobody's there, there is another bus, or sometimes it's too hot and your guide dog seeing eye dogs paws are burning, and sometimes there are five buses in a row and even if you get on board the vehicle, what do you do when you can't see a map? Or when the bus driver forgets where you want to get off, or when you just don't know the city, or when honestly, you just don't want to deal with the hassle of I have to plan a trip 24 hours in advance. 

So I figured, let's use... some engineering expertise here and let's put a solution together. That basically means that when you, I, or anybody gets to the bus stop, we can just select where we want to go and forget about all those issues of being left behind, being stranded on the side of the road, and grumpy bus drivers.

04:15S3

So let's start by talking about you in particular. So you have a vision impairment.

04:20S4

That's correct. I am blind, so I technically can see 2% through my right eye, but for all intents and purposes I can just see colors and shapes. So everything that I do - Braille, guide dog, screen or the software user and I am originally from Colombia, so I made it to Australia about 15 years ago with the hopes of improving just the quality of life this weekend with my family, and decided to study electrical engineering. And that was a bit of an interesting roller coaster, because as far as a lot of universities in Australia and in the southern hemisphere and in the world, it sounds like there aren't many engineers in the world who have a vision impairment, period. 

So I figured, let's do something about some of the issues that we get faced with every day, and let's make sure that the solutions are coming from companies that are being led by persons with disabilities, and everything is designed so that it doesn't matter whether you can see or whether you can't walk or whatever.

05:27S3

How this works. How tricky was it actually getting into your course? I mean, often it would have taken some talking. I'm guessing it was.

05:36S4

Because so as just elaborating on on the engineering, the apparently the first person who was crazy enough to do electrical engineering with a visual impairment in the southern hemisphere. So when I approach my university, I said, Hey, I want to I want to do this. I have the grades from high school and the ATAR to be able to do this. And the university professors, they said, Listen, we have no idea how to do this. We don't know how to teach you the stuff that we need to teach you. And I said to them, listen, if you're willing to give it a chance, I don't know what I'm going to learn. I don't know what we can do about it, but you don't know until you try, right? 

Unfortunately, I think the biggest help was the professors, the teachers at {Kut?], which is where I study. They find it as an engineering challenge. So to them, getting me across the line was, Oh, this is not just another student. This is not just a cool little project. This is an engineering challenge. How do I teach you how to design circuits when you can't see them? How do I teach you what signals look like when well, you can't see them? How do you write code? And how do you make sure that all of that isn't just, okay, you were able to do a test, but you are able to do it successfully so that when you graduate, you're a good engineer.

06:54S3

I can understand that. I come from a IT engineering background myself. And yes, quite recently we brought on a new co-host here who is totally blind and is like, she's great as far as talking and all this sort of stuff. But then there's all the other nitty gritty and it's like, how do we do this? And it's been quite stimulating. It, hasn't it?

07:17S2

I don't know that I would have used that word, but we'll go with that.

07:22S4

I love the... the connection between you two.

07:26S2.

It's fantastic. I'm not very... what they would call technologically literate. And I just recently bought myself a MacBook Pro. Yeah, I already feel like chucking it at the wall.

07:35S3

And guess who would have to put it back together again? I mean, that would be fun. So what have been the problems you've faced with public transport? I mean, you've described, I think a lot of whatmost of us would understand. So, I mean, the most obvious one is really when the buses all queue up together and you're waiting there, and, it turns out that they're the one you're after is like the third bus along. Is there anything else that we sort of forgotten to talk about that you sort of come across and gone. This really needs fixing.

08:04S4 

Yeah, well, there are a couple of components, because we're not only just talking about our experiences as visual impaired individuals, we're talking about the experiences from drivers. So if you talk to drivers, the biggest thing is they want to do what's right. They want to help. Yes, some might be grumpy, but most of them want to do what's right but they don't know. And you know, they're driving a 20 tonne vehicle with people screaming, yelling, talking inside of it. There is a very complex environment inside, you know, their cabin. So in addition to, you know, us being left behind by buses, us not being dropped off in the incorrect stop. 

When you combine the experiences of drivers and the experiences of us and talk to the people above, oftentimes they don't know that. They don't understand that. Oh, what do you mean you don't want to hold up a sign that says, uh, the 100 or the 200, uh, when it's raining or. Oh, what do you mean you don't want to plan a 24 hour trip in advance, even though it's ten minutes down the road. The concept is foreign to them, so it's just getting the message across or saying, hey, yes, this is a problem for persons with disabilities, but if public transport works, it means that we can do more and more people will use public transport. 

So this whole cycle of, okay, are you going to pay for a $50 Uber to go down the road each day when, you know, let's let's not kid ourselves in terms of employability, persons with disability, we tend to be more disadvantaged. So how do we come up with $50 every day to catch anybody? It's just insane. So the problems are what we see as ourselves, you know, whether you have a guide or whether you have a wheelchair and you're being dropped off or actually not even are able to get onto a train because they didn't put a ramp down. But the problems are just making sure that the people who run the systems understand that the more we struggle, the more expensive it gets for them.

10:04S3

So let's talk about the app itself. It's called Hailo, right?

10:08S4

So Hailo is fairly simple and it's it's simple in terms of how it works precisely so that more and more people can use it. Halo gives you the option of looking at the bus stops around. You're looking at the buses, trains and and so on and so forth that arrive at those bus stops. But the critical components are you are able to a select your disability or your access requirements. So. You know, I use a guide dog, I use a cane, I use a wheelchair. I am a parent, a parent with a pram. I have a hidden disability. I choose not to disclose and then it allows you to select the vehicle you want to get on. 

Once you are near the bus stop or at the bus stop rather, and it allows you to select where you want to get off and you get alerts as the vehicle approaches. But the most important part is the vehicle operator. In this case, let's talk about a bus driver. They get an alert one stop before they need to pick you up saying, oh, you know, Sam wants to get on at the next stop and he uses a cane or so. Keep an eye and an eye out for somebody who uses a cane, or for somebody who uses a guide dog. And once you get on the bus, the reverse occurs. You don't have to worry about remembering when to press the bell. You don't have to worry about the driver's memory, and they'll get an alert, just as you will, to know where you want to get off. 

And the whole objective is makes it easy for us, makes it easy for the drivers, and we don't have to worry about planning anything. Just go whenever and wherever that has been.

11:43S3

A really big bugbear is it has. I mean, just the amount of times you've got on a bus and you're going to somewhere you don't, you know, you're not familiar with it. So you say, can you please let me know when we get to such and such? And of course, the bus driver completely forgets about it.

11:58S4

Well, I'll tell you one of the reasons why they forget about it. Excluding, obviously, the fact that, you know, driving is difficult and driving a big vehicle, I'm sure is even more so. A lot of the systems in Australia and even in the world, they don't have a map for the route that the bus driver needs to follow. So the bus driver remembers the route from studying it. You know, it's like us when we prepare for an exam and newer systems do, but because drivers, they change, you know, the routes that they do every day, when you ask them, hey, can you let me know when we get to stop seven in front of, you know, Martyr Hill or whatever? To them, that's just an unusual name. They're just going to forget about it.

12:43S2

How were you able to integrate the app with the systems that they use on the buses, you know, to, in order to communicate with them as to where you want to go?

12:53S4

The advantage that a lot of developed nations have with regards to their public transport systems is they're already connected. So to make systems halo enabled, we just give them some information as to what they need to do in the back end, in the background stuff that we don't see and we can directly target the vehicle computers. So then when I say target, I'm not I'm not meaning shooting them. But we can make sure that the appropriate message about the appropriate pickup or the appropriate drop off gets to, you know, the bus or the train or whatever form of transport you happen to be catching. So the systems are basically halo ready. We just need to make them halo enabled.

13:38S2

And was the transport industry quite happy to to work in collaboration with you? Was it something that was, uh, accepted easily, or did you have to fight to integrate the app with their system?

13:49S4

We have had to do some work, uh, because in 2021. Well, actually, I'll go even further back. I'm very proud to say that we're the first company around the world that has done this. We started way back in 2018, and we ran a trial in 2021, in Sydney with Guide Dogs, with Virgin Australia, with the former Sydney Transit Authority. And as a result of that, one of the things that we said to, to uh, the transport agencies was we need to be able to communicate with the vehicle. Otherwise we are going to have to add an extra device to the vehicle. And that's just it becomes very difficult because of the unions. It becomes very difficult because of many, many, many, many other reasons. 

So it's been a long, long journey because we since 2021 and well, even before we were saying, Hey, let's do this and let's do it this way. So that the entry point for bus drivers is simple. The equipment is basically zero cost. And the other component is we need to make sure that they understand it's not just, oh, it's a cute thing being done by people who are blind. Oh that's cute. It's something that is going to help the community at large. You know, if I can catch a bus, I can do whatever, whenever, however I want to. Right? But if the system works for me, it also works for somebody who doesn't speak the language, or it also works for a child, or it works for somebody who can't speak. And you just keep going down that road, and it's just making sure that they understand accessibility isn't an afterthought, isn't something that you do at the end because it's very expensive and it doesn't really mean anything. It's something that if you do it from the beginning. You can get some marvelous results. 

15:37S3

Well I mean, one of the things that also you come across when you're as soon as you get on to I'm sticking with buses here at the moment because train trains and trams and to some degree ferries are relatively self-explanatory. There are announcements and things like that. But you it's a case of actually finding the button to press as well, which can be a problem. And this is something you've actually solved as well, because you basically select the stop before you get on the bus anyway. So you select the stop you want to get off. But I mean, people don't understand that a nice big button may not be obvious to somebody like us.

16:17S4

Catching a bus. And it was really funny because I caught a bus last week. I needed to go from one stop to the next. It was a very, very short trip and I nobody got up for my guide and I, and I said, that's fine, that's all good. No worries. So I was standing next to the front wheel. Well. And in Brisbane and in Sydney and in Melbourne and in Adelaide, depending on the bus, some have buttons near the wheel wells for you to press, but some do not. And this was one of those ones where you didn't. And you know who do I ask? Where is it? And people think, oh, just ask somebody. But everybody is different, right? Our personalities and our lived experiences are different, and some people might not feel comfortable asking. Some people might not be able to ask, might not be able to speak.

17:08S4

And some people might not be able to press the button physically. They might not be able to move their arms. So what do you do in those situations?

17:13S2

It's interesting that you should say that, you know, some people are comfortable with asking, but then why should we have to ask if there's measures that can be put in place to support us to be able to get off at the right stop?

17:25S4

Right. I think people forget that we are humans. We we we want to live our lives just like the sighted population does, or the non disabled population does. If you, you know, for a lack of a better word, because when they see us, they only see, oh, that guy is walking with a cane, or that girl is walking with a guide dog and they only see 10s so they think, oh, you know, I don't know how they do it, but they forget about it very quickly. So when you tell people, hey, I can't see a bus to help it, they're like, what do you mean? Why can't you help it? It's like, I can't see it. I don't know when it is coming and explaining such a basic concept or how do I find a button? They're like, what do you mean isn't? It's just obvious. It's right there. It's like, where is there?

18:10S3

Mm. So going back to the app itself. So let's just start from square one. So you want to catch a bus somewhere. Does this thing let you know where the nearest bus stop is or where the nearest station is or anything like that. Or do you have to actually go somewhere else for that?

18:26S4

No, it does. So it lets you know how far the stops are from you. And once you say okay, I want, I don't know, stop seven you click the stop and then it shows you the vehicles that are coming to that stop.

18:41S3

Right. So you don't have to be necessarily be there, but you can actually sort of, uh, you can still select it from wherever you are. So you might be on your way there or you might be at home or something like that.

18:51S4

Correct. So you can see the stop, you can see the vehicles. The only thing you cannot do is to hail the bus unless you're physically at the bus stop. Right. That's obviously to prevent misuse. And nobody wants to hurl a bus across the city because the bus driver is going to be very annoyed if they stop and nobody's there. Right. But once you make it to the physical bus stop, it then gives you the option to hail the bus up to you. Whether you select your destination or if you just want to select your destination and you're happy hailing the bus by yourself, perfectly fine, right? 

So the idea is you choose what you want to tell the bus driver and how you want to do it. Once you hail the bus or select your destination, they have just tells you, hey, the bus is five minutes away, two minutes, three minutes. When the bus is arriving, it gives you a haptic and auditory alert. You get on the bus. You sit down up to you where they say hi to the driver.

And you get an alert if you select the destination. When you're approaching the stop, just like the driver does, and that's it. You get off the bus, you continue in your merry way. You don't have to worry about anything else. That's as simple as it gets. And you get an alert if you select the destination. When you're approaching the stop, just like the driver does, and that's it. You get off the bus, you continue in your merry way. You don't have to worry about anything else. That's as simple as it gets.

19:59S3

Basically, it sounds so simple. I mean, it's amazing. No one's really come up with this in the past.

20:05S4

Well, that's the thing that boggles my mind. You know, last year I was fortunate enough to travel to 11 different countries across the world as a result of my Churchill Fellowship, and I chose to observe or to study public transport accessibility across those 11 different countries. And I said, let's look at everything, right? Let's look at the built environment, the culture, the political spectrum. But, you know, I was also curious what else is being done to fix this issue. And nothing. We? I'm proud to say that we were the first in 2018. And, you know, it sounds like, you know, we're leading the way as a result of, you know, in 2021, doing the trial and starting our pilot that we're doing as a result of a challenge. The transport for New South Wales did, this year. And, you know, it feels exciting to be able to say, let's change this for the better.

21:00S3

So let's talk about the trial now. So, which routes are involved at the moment and how can people be involved basically?

21:07S4

If you're interested, at the moment, our pilot is happening in New South Wales and it's happening in Sydney, in Queanbeyan and in Tweed Heads. We would love for it to be broader, but obviously, you know, we're getting started. If people are interested on signing up and go to our website, [?] which dot h I locaux, and there is a section that says pilots click there, register for the pilot and then go for your life. We're working obviously to make it across Australia, but at the moment New South Wales is leading the way. You know, if you guys want to take a trip to Sydney, let me know. We can set you guys up and you guys can go for many, many bus rides.

21:54S2

That would be really cool. I, I can't wait to be able to test out this app and use it, because I've been using apps like move It for some time. And obviously you've got the same sort of, uh, principle where you can select the bus that you want to catch and where you want to get off, and it gives you the alerts, but it doesn't have that interaction with the driver or the vehicle. So I can't wait to actually test out this app either when it comes to Adelaide or if we get an opportunity to travel to Sydney, you'll definitely be you'll definitely be hearing from us at some stage. You definitely. Yes, yes. 

Anyway, Santi, thank you for joining us today. It is been enlightening and rather thrilling to hear the enthusiastic your enthusiasm. I can't speak properly enthusiasm in your voice as you talk about your project.

22:41S4

Sam. It's been an absolute pleasure. I hope that we can make it to Adelaide very, very soon and to the rest of Australia. And again, thank you so much for having me here. And if people are interested again, I'll share all the details with you guys. I'm hoping, you know they can accompany the show notes. And again, uh, visit us at loco and get on it. Let's, uh, start fixing public transport for Los...

23:09S2

98 seats. No satellite parts. Three minutes on time.

23:14S6

Cool. When it comes to this. Kidding.

23:16UU

Still, don't tell me about the upcoming stuff. I did not understand. Just. 9127.

23:33S6

Getting ready to board buses approaching your pickup.

23:35S2

See me get ready to board boxes approaching your pickup store.

23:39S3

So you haven't even booked it.

23:39S2

Yet, but I did. Oh, you did, I did, I just did. Ah, to see what it would do. Yep.

23:46S3

Is this us? I'm not sure.

23:48UU

I should say so, but bus stop away day. She is there, I say be shall my umbrella, I must stop.

23:57S7

So what do you think, Cassie? Who is the developer of the new bus signalling app that.

24:02S2

We used on our little adventure? Cassie, welcome to Studio 1.

24:05S8

Thank you for having me.

24:06S2

No worries. So we actually had a really interesting experience yesterday in that we were able to catch the bus to the end of the loop and the app worked really well, but however it it didn't go so well on our return journey. I don't know if there was a temporary bus stop or whether it couldn't figure out where we were, but it just it wasn't playing ball. Yeah, but all in all, it was a very interesting experience. I've not used an app like this before. So what made you want to use it again? I would, I would, I would I was just going to ask what made you want to develop such an app.

24:42S8

Yeah. So, See Me is based off many years of standing at the bus stop and being left behind. So, you know, usually these days I wear a high-vis vest and hold a sign, in the hope of getting the bus driver to pull over. And that doesn't always happen. And, you know, I thought, there's got to be a better way. And you know what? If you could actually, like, let the bus driver know ahead of time that, hey, I'm standing here. And the same with, you know, when we're trying to get off the bus, trying to know, like, you know, is this the right stop, um, to be notified. It just, you know, helps make the trip less stressful.

25:18S3

So you have a vision impairment. So let's hear a little bit about you and... What? Yeah. And your eyesight.

25:24S8

My vision began to deteriorate during high school. Continued throughout the years. I'm now legally blind. And currently I'm learning Braille because I'm just finding, visually, it's causing a lot of pain and strain, to try and do things heavily magnified these days.

25:44S3

What I find absolutely fascinating about where we've gone with this show is it's a very bus like situation. We've all been sitting here complaining about it and thinking there must be some sort of solution, and all of a sudden two solutions show up at the same time.

25:59S8

Yeah, I mean, I think it, you know, isn't it great that, like, we're trying to solve this solution, you know, like, so often we go, Oh, you know, this is an issue and we do nothing about it, or we try and get organisations to try and solve it. And like I spent many years trying to get, um, different organisations to try and solve it. And I think, you know, having that lived experience really helps to create, to develop the solution because you know firsthand what the issue is and, you know, a potential way of how it could be solved. And I think, you know, with, with having, you know, two people trying to solve it, it just highlights that this is something that really does need to be solved and something that should have been solved a long time ago.

26:45S3

So you're an app developer by profession? 

26:49S8

Yep. I work as a programmer at Sage Automation.

26:52S2

It's quite interesting because there's a number of different bus journey planning sort of apps or apps that you can use to find the bus timetables and, live directions. But there aren't really any apps that so far indicate to a driver where you need to go when you need to get off. So oftentimes, like yesterday going into the city, I was reliant on the driver's memory to tell me where to get off because the app that I was trying to use actually didn't work. Yeah.

27:22S8

And then so often, you know, like if, if the bus driver happens to forget, you know, you end up many stops away and then, you know, disorientated and trying to navigate back, you know, quite a stressful experience.

27:36S3

That was why I used to carry around a street directory back in the days before smartphones. Because, yes, when I'd jump on the wrong bus, bus or missed the stop or whatever. And while I was new to Adelaide about 25 years ago, so a blind person new to Adelaide, I needed to find my way around. Hence a large street directory in the back pocket now. So we have smartphones now and we have this amazing app here now. It's still in development though, so there are obviously a lot of things that will come later if this thing goes into full production. What sort of feedback have you had so far?

28:11S8

Yeah, so a lot of the feedback, um, has been, you know, surprised, that there hasn't already been a solution, like this in place already. You know, people are happy that this is being looked at now and being addressed. Certainly, you know, uh, there's features that people, uh, want added to the app. And, you know, we're always taking on more feedback, as to what people want because we want to develop something, you know, that works for everyone. But we're also doing like an open approach as well. 

And, you know. Looking at how can we integrate with other transport apps? Because we know, you know, people get used to to certain apps that they like. And we want to actually be able to expand this so that, you know, more people can use it and don't have to move away from something that they already prefer to use.

29:02S3

As Lizzie said, we used this yesterday, and I think we can both provide some feedback. Lizzie, what would what would be the big thing that you think would improve the app or, in general?

29:12S2

Well, I think that the notifications for the bus arrivals and also arriving at our stop were a little bit premature. So both times we got caught out in the sense that we were told that our bus stop was next, and yet we were still two stops away from where we were meant to get off. Luckily, we had communicated with the bus driver prior to, and he let us know that we had picked the wrong stop and the other one was waiting for the bus as well. We both got a notification saying that our next bus would be the one to arrive, and it wasn't, so we could have got on the wrong bus and ended up. Who knows where. 

But apart from that, I think the idea is fantastic. And the fact that you can, you can pick a bus and see what stops her along the route is great.

30:03S3

I'm guessing a lot of that is already sort of in progress anyway. Cassie, so I mean, is there anything any comment on that one?

30:10S8

Yeah. No, the whole notifications around, pick up and drop off is is something I think I'm constantly thinking about how that can be improved because, you know, the challenge that, we've got is how how early or, you know, you don't want to be too late in notifying someone. And we're also, you know, when you use the GFS, um, data. So the, the bus location is reliant on, on how quickly is that updated as to, you know, how quickly your phone can then take on that information to go, okay, I need to notify you now that the bus is approaching. 

So, yeah, currently brainstorming a couple of different ideas on how to improve like that information so that, you know, okay. Like, you know, maybe it's like the the bus is 100m away from you, so you've got that little bit more context of okay, like it's it's almost here.

Yeah. No, the whole, um, notifications around, um, pick up and drop off is is something I think I'm constantly thinking about how that can be improved because, you know, the challenge that, um, we've got is how how early or, you know, you don't want to be too late in notifying, um, someone. And we're also, you know, when you use the GFS, um, data. So the, the bus location is reliant on, on how quickly is that updated as to, you know, how quickly your phone can then take on that information to go, okay, I need to notify you now that the bus is approaching. So, um, yeah, currently brainstorming a couple of different ideas on how to improve like that information so that, you know, okay. Like, you know, maybe it's like the the bus is 100m away from you, so you've got that little bit more context of okay, like it's it's almost here.

31:05S3

And when we were talking earlier on, I did mention this situation and you did say that if you've got more than one bus on the network, then you have a little more control of the data. So the app could potentially say, no, this is not your bus, don't get on it. And things like that.

And when we were talking earlier on, I did mention this situation and you did say that if you've got more than one bus on the network, then you have a little more control of the data. So the app could potentially say, no, this is not your bus, don't get on it. And things like that.

31:22S8

We certainly know and like I know from my own experience, you know, when when you have three buses appear at the same time, um, you know, we've still got that manual process where you've got to check with the bus driver to go, hey, are you my bus? Um, like, is this the bus route that I need? You know, certainly I hope to be able to find a way to to streamline that a bit more so that you know that. Okay. Like, you know, I don't need the first second. It's actually the third one I need, um.

We certainly know and like I know from my own experience, you know, when when you have three buses appear at the same time, um, you know, we've still got that manual process where you've got to check with the bus driver to go, hey, are you my bus? Um, like, is this the bus route that I need? You know, certainly I hope to be able to find a way to to streamline that a bit more so that you know that. Okay. Like, you know, I don't need the first second. It's actually the third one I need, um.

31:49S3

And that was funny. That is exactly what happened that we had, uh, programmed our apps for a particular bus. And as it turns out, it was the third bus along, and, uh, it hasn't happened to me for a while, I suppose, because I rely more on trains and buses. But it was amazing. It was like the transport gods said. All right, we are going to give you material for this week's show. Now, my, um, bit of feedback was, um, when you program in your stop, you're getting off. There's not a lot of feedback otherwise, so it's pretty much says so we got off at Grote Street and it basically kept on counting us down 20 minutes until, um, we got there 19, 16, whatever. But there was no sort of feedback of when the next stop was or what we're passing by or anything like that. So it's just quite disconcerting. And I mean, Lisa, you found that as well, because, I mean, you can't really sort of see anything as you were going past.

32:46S2

Yeah, I think it would certainly be helpful to sort of know where you are along the route or along the map. Again, I think if that seemed to if that's something that's integrated into the app, it would be a lot, a lot more comforting, I think, is the word I was looking for.

33:02S3

Yeah. So I mean, I was yeah, I was sort of thinking along the lines of instead of having, okay, you're you've decided to, you know, have say, all right, the next stop is such and such, but you're stopping at this, and this is an estimated time of arrival here or something like that, because at least it gives you an idea. I mean, we ended up using Google Maps essentially to find out where the hell we are, but I'm just. Yeah. I mean, is there any work on, um, anything like that or. I mean, is this the first time we've talked about it?

33:28S8

No. So, we've actually been, you know, discussing like, you know, do we have a countdown of stops so, you know, do, like seven stops until you've got to get off? Oh, good idea. You know, is it a distance thing? Tthe challenge we've got is that, you know, some people. Preferred the the minute countdown. Other people want more detail. So, you know, now it's like, do we add a toggle option to go? What sort of information would you like? Because some people don't want to be, like overloaded with that information and would prefer to wait, um, to get the notification, say like bus is approaching a destination, whereas, you know, others want that like countdown to go, okay, like I've still got ten stops to go, like there's still time. Um, and then you can check again and go, oh, okay. Like we're now down to five stops. Um, so, you know, I mean, that's this is the great thing about, getting user feedback, right? Like, everyone has a different, like, way that they use and interpret data, which means we can look at different ways to, you know, try and help everyone. You know, and that may be like a toggle option, um, like to say, yes, I want more detail or no, I don't configurability.

34:39S3

I would, I think would be a massive bonus because I think one of the big things that especially for visually impaired, uh, passengers is sometimes you don't have enough room on the screen of your phone for a highly advanced, uh, thing. So, yeah, if you can have something where you can toggle certain things off so that you have what you want, I think that would probably be a lot better because every eye condition is different.

35:02S8

Yeah. That's right. And how people use the app, um, and use their phone is, is very different. And you know, when I first started to create this app, you know, bucket list of, of different things I wanted to add in and, and go, oh, you know, this would be a cool feature, but I had to really dial that down to like, create like sort of the base version. Um, because, you know, while I can add in a whole heap of different features, it may be features that people don't actually want or use or would find necessary. And that's, you know, the great thing about, like doing proof of concept is to get that feedback from people to, to hear, well, you know, what would actually make this a better experience for you?

35:45S3

One of the things that, uh, we did notice and we actually got a very, very chatty bus driver when we were on there as well, which was interesting. But he mentioned that originally when you were trialling the app, that there was a piece of hardware attached to the dashboard of the bus and that that's not attached anymore. What is the reasoning behind that?

36:08S8

Yeah. So we did have a dashboard. The challenge becomes driver distraction because it's, you know, something else. They've got to, like, look at, by tying in with the onboard bus Bell system, it ties in with what the bus driver already knows. So, you know, you don't really need, like, additional training for that, because, you know, when you hear the bus bill ding. You know, the driver knows, oh, I need to pull over at the next stop. So, you know, by removing that light box, it just removes a distraction that you know, the drivers don't need.

36:40S3

But I believe the buses, the are still not being notified that there's someone waiting at the bus stop. So is there a I'm I'm presuming you're working on that as well. 

36:50S8

Yeah. So the bus, um, bell rings when there's a pickup or drop off. Oh, okay, yeah. To ensure that the the driver will actually pull over. It doesn't, you know, obviously tell the bus driver that, hey, there's there's ten people, you know, waiting at the bus stop, but they do know that, Oh, I need to pull over because there's been a request.

37:10S2

The one piece of positive feedback that I do have, which is obviously been taken into consideration as the app is designed for people with vision impairment, is that VoiceOver works really well with it. And I'm a VoiceOver user, so I had to use it for the first time yesterday, and I was pleasantly surprised at just how easy it was to use.

37:31S3

I'm presuming that was very much engineered into it. I mean, because yeah, I found it very user friendly as a visually impaired person as well. 

37:37S8

Yeah. That's right. So I'm a screen reader user, as well. And, you know, certainly know the headaches of apps that have not been built, um, you know, with vision impairment or screen reader use. o, you know, that that was one of my big things that I worked on was that, you know, it had to work with the screen reader and, you know, to work with different levels of vision as well.

38:01S3

And I'm presuming that is also one of the reasons why you try to make it as minimal as possible. Because one of the things that can cause problems with screen readers is overly complicated apps.

38:11S8

That's right. And it also, you know, can cause complications for people if you overcomplicate it, um, as well. Um, so, you know, I tried to keep it as simple as possible, you know, have large, um, touch areas, enough information so that, you know, um, you know, obviously with notifications, there's still more work to be done. But, you know, I'm trying to make this app something that everyone can use. Like, it doesn't matter. You know what, disability if you have one or not trying to make it something that can work for everyone regardless of your ability. 

38:44S3

You mentioned that there were features that you wanted. Tell us about one that you haven't been able to get in or that, uh, just just something that you've wanted in there, but you haven't been able to get on to it?

38:54S8

Yeah. So one of the ones I'm hoping to put in sometime soon is to be able to actually, like, search for your destination. Stop. So instead of having to, like, you know, so you're at the very start of a route and you want something like 20 stops away so that you don't have to listen to 20 different stops, um, to be able to search and go, oh, I want, you know, stop D3, Groat Street, and to be able to just select the destination that way instead of having to, like, flick through it and try and find where D3 is on the list.

39:27S7

That would be amazing.

39:28S3

Yeah, that would be that would be very useful. And I mean, if you like a lot of the other public transport apps, if you can actually do that while you're actually waiting for the bus and, uh, it can actually say, all right, now you're waiting for the wrong bus because we don't go there because often you have to actually ask the driver as well. So, yeah. And if it has the, uh, uh, database of the public transport system, sort of, uh, accessible, then yeah, that would be a bit of a game changer. Yeah, absolutely. And how far are we from, uh, actually looking at the next stage of development?

39:59S8

Well, we're constantly in development. So, you know, I've got a backlog of development tasks to add in. You know, we're currently getting feedback, um, with the Adelaide trial, and then we'll start to release some more features based on people's feedback. And then, you know, go through another round of, of trying to get more feedback to see how it's going. To then continue the talks of being able to roll this out across a vast network.

40:25S3

And you're, uh, also, uh, in development now in, in new parts of New South Wales. I'm here. 

40:31S8

That's right. We're also testing in New South Wales, which is great because it's another, use case for the Simmy and, you know, understanding localised public transport issues as well.

40:44S3

And if people want to be part of the trial what do they do?

40:46S8

Yep. So, if you want to be part of the trial, the app is available on both Android and Apple, and you can find it by searching for semi bus signalling.

40:57S3

And in that exactly what we did as well. We'll provide links to the App Store and to the Google Play Store in the podcast descriptions as well. Thank you, Cassie, for joining us.

41:07S8

Thank you for having me.

41:11S3

And that's a wrap for this week. Next week we are joined by Zelle and Nihar. What is it like to move to a new country and what is it like if you're totally blind and you actually can't see what's going on or even speak the same language? 

41:24S2

Very interesting question. Between now and then though, please get in touch with the show whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help somebody who's dealing with something similar.

41:39S3

You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org ... Studio one - at Vision Australia - dot - org.

41:45S2

Or you can drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com [slash] VA Radio Network. Now, where's your bus? Not here yet. 

S3 

It's in 1990. City lube is four minutes away from stop T2 Brown Street.

41:59S1

There we go. Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.