Dating Blind 3

00:07 S1

This is studio one on Vision Australia radio.

00:13 S2

Hello, I'm Sam and.

00:14 S3

I'm Lizzie.

00:15 S2

And this is Studio One, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio on this.

00:21 S3

Week's show.

00:22 S2

It's the final part of our Dating Blind trilogy. Disability and pride advocate Karen Negron tells us about being blind, Indian and gay in Australia, and.

00:32 S3

Vision Australia's own Sarah Evans tells us how to navigate dating apps and single life in general.

00:38 S2

As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this episode of Studio One, or if you think there is something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.

00:53 S3

Please do get in contact with us by emailing us at studio one at Vision Australia. Org, that's studio one at Vision Australia. Org or you can drop us a note at our Facebook page at facebook.com slash VA Radio Network. We'd love to hear from you.

01:15 S2

Well is he? We're back doing essentially the same episode as we did last week. This was not planned this way, but I think it had to be this way. We just had so much material. I mean, as we said at the start of last week, all your friends did not want to talk about their their dating lives, but you put the microphone in front of somebody else who's got a slightly different story to tell, and you can't shut them up.

01:41 S3

No. That's right. And, uh, this is the last part of our trilogy, as we've stated, and all good things come in trilogies, I believe they do.

01:50 S2

Uh, some of my favorite movies are in trilogies, and my favorite book series actually comes in a trilogy of five parts.

01:56 S3

That's not a trilogy.

01:57 S2

You should tell. Douglas Adams said, no, you can't, he's dead.

02:01 S3

And not to mention the old sayings that, you know, three time's a charm, third time lucky, all that sort of thing. So you know why not?

02:08 S2

So the first person we're talking to here is Kieran, uh, as he is said himself, he actually belongs to quite a number of different minority groups. Being from India, being gay and being blind, he's trying to work his way into other minority groups as well. We will probably be presenting a whole show devoted to him in future, because this interview went on for quite a long time, and I actually lost track of how long it was going on for. It felt like it was a lot shorter.

02:40 S3

Yeah, I mean, I think that tends to happen when you talk to very insightful people. You just lose track of time before you know it.

02:48 S2

And after that, we are talking to Sara Evans, who some VA clients will recognize because she runs the tele link advice groups and she does not admit to being a guru, but she seems to know her stuff quite well. But before we talk to her, let's hear from Kiran.

03:06 S4

Hello, Sam. How are you?

03:08 S2

I am terrific. It's a very nice morning over here in Adelaide. How are things over in your corner of the world?

03:13 S4

Well, Melbourne's been like a furnace, to be honest with you. And the last two days it's been so pleasant. It's honestly because I'm new to Melbourne, I'm from Perth and I'm just getting used to this whole four seasons in one day, but just lately it's felt like four seasons in one week, because you've had three days where the temperature has been above 38. And then like last night when I landed, it was about, I think 14.

03:38 S2

So young man, we're expecting to catch up about 15 minutes ago. Why are you late?

03:44 S4

Well, firstly, thank you for calling me young because I'm 38 and in the gay world that's like 65. So thank you. And the reason I was late was because I arrived quite late from Sydney last night. I was on SBS inside where we talked about the diversity dilemma and it was quite a controversial subject because there were all these opinions that were being thrown. But I had the honour, I guess, of representing blind people that that are, that are also gay and off colour. So it was a really interesting conversation, one sided conversation, because you weren't really allowed to interact with the other guests when the cameras were rolling. So it was hard to bite your tongue every now and then because I'm quite outspoken.

04:32 S2

So you have a disability, you are gay, and your, um, background is not what you'd call your normal white Australian. Correct.

04:43 S4

So it's like I say, Sam, it's like sometimes I say it's like I've hit the the diversity jackpot. And it's not a good thing because, you know, it just it just leads to a lot of explanations. Uh, there'll be times where every time I say something, I'll get asked, which puts me in a position where I've got to explain something about myself, which on a daily basis. So like, for example, people will see a ring on my finger or what is your wife do? Well, no, I don't have a wife. I'm gay or you're gay. Oh, but you don't look gay. Well, okay, what does the gay person look like? Oh, okay. So if I'm sitting at a restaurant and my cane is on the chair, the waiter would come up to me and then give me the menu or something. I'd be like, oh, sorry, I can't see that I'm blind. You're blind. But you look fine. No, I'm actually blindness is a spectrum. You know, it's a misconception that to be blind you have to wear dark glasses or have white cloudy eyes all the time. That's not true.

05:37 S2

So let's start with some basics here though. So you have a vision impairment. What is your eye condition?

05:42 S4

Sure. I have a condition called usher syndrome which causes blindness and hearing loss. So I wear hearing aids in order to hear people. The second is more than one person. Uh, in the scenario, it turns into a little bit of white noise, and I have 3% remaining. So I have no peripheral, no night vision. And my central vision is, uh, less than three degrees. So essentially, I cannot leave the house without my cane. Now, an interesting question I get a lot is because I work for guide dogs. Victoria. It's like if you work for guide dogs, Victoria, how come you don't have a guide dog? And the reason for that, because I'm assuming you were going to ask me that is because I have two little rascals at home. I have two French bulldogs, Henry and Ella, and they are so naughty that I feel like if I was to get a guide dog, they will destroy that dog's training in two minutes and I will get hit by a bus and die.

06:39 S2

I think you've got an interesting story to tell about meeting that special somebody who was not what they seemed.

06:47 S4

Oh yes. Oh my God. Okay, fine. This is going to really embarrass me. But it's a funny story. So I'm going to tell you. Right. Okay. So this could have happened when I was in my late 20s and oh, no, it would have been in my 30s. Uh, I was recently out of a long term relationship, so I was a little, you know, when you just you just broken up. You you want a party, you want to drink a little bit more. And I'm not the sort of person that would hit on someone. I'm quite shy that way. I come across as quite outspoken. But like when it comes to things like this, I'm quite shy. And this one night I've gone to this club and I've had a few drinks and I'm, you know, like feeling really confident and I see this really cute guy across the floor and he was standing by himself. So I'm like, oh, poor guy. He's alone and he's cute. Let me go talk to him. So I go there and I'll keep in mind, there's the club. There's, you know, loud music. I didn't wear my hearing aids because it's too much in a club when you've got hearing aids and the music is so loud. So I'm talking to this guy. Uh, occasionally the lights of flash never see his face. I'm like, yeah, he's really cute. So the conversation went on for maybe at least an hour. And I'm not going to lie, when that person said something to me, I wasn't really registering because it was so loud. So I'm still flirting and it goes on and on and on. And then at the end. Club is closing, so the lights come on. And it turns out that this guy was actually a lesbian with very short hair, dressed in a shirt and pants. So I spent an hour hitting on a girl who was into girls. When I'm a guy who's into guys.

08:20 S2

Well, I wanted you to tell that story is I think that you will have, um, people listening now that would just identify so much with that one of the stereotypes one would have with someone from an ethnic background. What was your family like with this? Were they, uh, you know, uh, absolutely gobsmacked and horrified when you came out or is there a different story there?

08:41 S4

So I grew up in a household that was quite progressive, to be honest with you. My friends that are Australian have heard stories that I've told them about my family and the things we do and the things we say, and they've actually gone like, wow, my parents look conservative, or they look like Mormons next to yours, you know? So I'm just putting a little bit of background there that my family is really progressive, having said that, my dad was an army officer. When you're an Army officer, the is quite clear that men should be men. This is how you live, period. But my parents were quite open minded and I was not. I didn't come out to them. I was actually outed. It's a funny story in retrospect, but basically my dad bought me a new phone, so I gave my old phone to mum. This is when I was in Australia and my mum is blind. Mum has the same condition as I do and also back then they weren't really like the phones weren't really smartphones, right? So you didn't really think of things like deleting your sandbox or deleting certain things, like you would think if I delete my inbox is done. So anyway, my mum would have complained to my dad that the phone was really slow. So my dad did some, you know, he was inspecting the phone and trying to sort of delete folders. And I think that's where he saw some messages that made it fairly obvious that I was flirting with guys, and guys were flirting with me. So I just got a call from my mum randomly. I remember I just come back from class and mum was like, who's mad? And I was like, huh? And then she's like, and who's who's who's Jacob? And I'm like, sorry, who? What are you talking about? And she mentioned a few other names and that's when the penny dropped and I was like, shit, what has happened? And then mum just laughed and she was like, son, your secret's out. It's okay, we know. And my mum was saying to me, it's okay that we know, but I got so angry because I think when you're outed, you feel betrayed. Uh, and I was also shocked. So I just completely shut down, yelled at her, and I hung up, and I didn't speak to my mum for like, three days, whereas we would talk, like, twice a day, you know, sometimes. Uh, so then after that, when I called her, we talked it out and she was like, you know, I did cry for two days. And I said, why did you cry? And then she actually said, I didn't cry because you're gay. I cried because I'm mourning the loss of a certain image that I had with my son, which would be he would get married to a woman, we would have grandkids, that sort of stuff. So look, like I said, my parents were in fact, my maternal grandparents were so progressive that coming out to them was actually easier than coming out to my mum. So my experience of coming out, uh, is not an example of what it's like for a typical Indian family where someone says their child is gay or lesbian.

11:34 S2

So you didn't mention the ring on your finger and that you are married. So let's hear about the other half.

11:40 S4

My husband, David and I met in 2016, and we got married in 2018. So it's been I'm really lucky and really blessed because, you know, initially I was a little like, oh, is it strange that I'm blind and I found love? Touchwood, you know, is is a strange. And then I started to talk to a lot of blind people online. And this is actually a fact, well, an unofficial fact that blind people are luckier in love. But honestly, it's like almost every blind person I've met in person has been happily married. They've got kids, they're well settled. You know, it's been really, really nice. But yeah, David's David's an absolute blessing. We are complete opposites, but we just get along so well. In fact, the first time we met, I did not tell him about my blindness, because back then I could see a lot better and I did not take my cane to the to the date. And what happened was the date was going a little awkward because I'm vegetarian and he ordered chicken feet and he's eating like chicken feet and I'm like trying to throw up. And then we just sort of decided, okay, let's go. Let's just go grab a coffee or hot chocolate after. And it was night time. So I said to him, you walk ahead and I'll follow you. And he found that strange, because that's a strange thing to say to someone if you don't know they're blind, right? But you walk ahead. I'll follow you. And then I was following him and he was quite suspicious. He's like, what's going on here? You know? Are you okay? Are you okay? That was happening. And then we went to dome, and as soon as I got my hot chocolate, I knocked it and it went all over the table and his lap. And I was so embarrassed that I just said, okay, I've been lying to you. I actually have a disability. I should be using my cane. I'm blind. And the second I said that whatever nervousness or anything we both had, it just went because it was just like from my side, all my cards on the table. Now, I've told you like a big, big secret. And we bonded so much over that. And just the rest is history. One thing led to another.

13:41 S2

It's been terrific talking to you, and I hope we get to talk to you again some other time.

13:47 S4

I would love that. It was so much fun. Sam, thank you so much for having me. And like I said, I can go on and on and on and on. So yeah, we definitely need more time next time.

14:00 S2

To finish off this week's episode, I am joined by Sarah. Who? Well, I'll let her introduce herself. What do you do for Vision Australia?

14:09 S5

Ah, yeah. Thanks, Sam. Um, I am a quality living coordinator, so my role at Vision Australia is to support clients to, uh, come to, like, support groups over the phone or in person. And we discuss our lived experience with vision loss. So, uh, some of our clients are new to vision loss, and they're kind of learning the ropes, but we also support people with long term vision loss to to share their stories and support each other.

14:33 S2

My best friend back in Darwin, at one stage, uh, set when I was sitting down with a beer and he said, I've been told that I've got really bad social skills. And I said, really? And yes, he did. And, uh, so people like you are absolutely vital, I think, because like it or lump it, um, we as a community do have shocking social skills at the best of times because we can't see people's reaction. Is there anything you can do about that? Aha.

15:06 S5

Um, well, most of our programs are over the phone, so the visual cues and things aren't relevant. So it puts everyone on an even playing field there. We are not structured in, um, social skills per se, but we do encourage people to kind of open up. We explore feelings and we kind of get people, uh, to explain their situation. So we do kind of encourage people to talk about it. But I applaud your friend for his, um, self-awareness. That's amazing.

15:35 S2

What sort of groups do you have? Are there the specific sort of, uh, types of groups that you're dealing with?

15:41 S5

Yeah, sure. So we, um, support clients, um, from age 18 all the way through. Um, so we kind of try and group people by life stage range or lifestyle range. So we'll have, like a younger person's group so people, you know, uh, exiting school, uh, wanting to do uni, maybe re-entering the workforce, interested in dating and relationships. Then we have a kind of middle aged client group, which is, you know, maybe, um, people in relationships married, maybe they have kids, maybe they're currently employed in their jobs or in jeopardy because of the vision loss. Or, you know, they might even have grandkids at that stage. Uh, and then we go to the older clients. So, you know, they're in retirement, they're wanting to enjoy their time. And the vision loss has impacted their ability to sit there and do the craft that they've always wanted to do or drive the the car that they've been saving up their whole life. And so we come together and discuss things as a group. Uh, we also have some kind of specialty groups we do have, and your listeners might be interested and a total blind client group, just specifically to support, um, people with no vision. Um, because we do find that sometimes their needs are a little bit different to, you know, the, the partials. So, um, that's a really cool thing. We also offer groups for visually impaired parents, um, which is how I came to the program myself. And, and, um, employed clients. So there's a range of different groups.

17:04 S2

So to get this straight, the structure, I'm guessing, is not you, Sarah, the guru telling people how to do it. No, no, it's actually people talking together and knotting this stuff out together.

17:14 S5

Absolutely. So what I do is I create that safe place. So I give some guidelines around, you know, conduct and behavior and how we're going to interact with each other. We're not providing advice to each other. We're going to make suggestions or we're going to share our own experience. So the first week we come together and I'll capture the challenges of that group of people. What what are the challenges that vision loss is, um, creating in your, your life or things you'd like to know to address. And then I'll kind of put a structure in place for the upcoming weeks and the topics we're going to talk about based on the client's needs. Um, and so I'm just there to facilitate, to stay on topic, to make sure everyone's, um, happy and sharing, make sure that, you know, some person doesn't kind of take over or everyone gets an opportunity to speak. Um, so that's basically my role. We also have a peer so that someone from the low vision community who's previously been involved in one of these groups, who is kind of the role model, um, that people can ask questions to, it's like, oh, you use a computer. How how do you how do blind people use computers? Um, and they can share their lived experience, um, vision loss as well for our clients.

18:17 S2

So let's hear a little bit more about you, however. So you have a vision impairment. What is your eye condition.

18:22 S5

Yeah. So I was diagnosed with stargates or macula um, when I was five. Um, so, you know, you run through all the gauntlets of testing and eyedrops and, you know, a bit traumatic when you're a little kid. I didn't feel comfortable identifying as someone with a vision impairment for most of my life. Um, so I just tried to fit in, um, with everyone. Uh, and so, you know, people would make comments like, oh, why can't you see that? It's like, oh, I'm blind. And but, you know, especially as a teenager, your ego gets in the way and you don't want to stand out. You just want to blend in. And it wasn't until my, uh, you know, went to uni, I got married, had some kids, and then my kids started school. And I was, um, involved in a different social scene. People that didn't know me, people that didn't know my history, and I didn't know how to let them know. There's a reason I'm a little bit awkward. And so that started my journey into, um, I call it my coming out story, um, coming out as vision impaired. And I got my first white cane, uh, and that's what brought me to Vision Australia and the parents groups and the support groups and I joined the community.

19:27 S2

I guess that's rather apt, because we've been talking to people who have had to literally come out, uh, and it's amazing how similar the stories they tell are actually to what it is like to, I don't know, face having a disability because I think we've all had, especially if we have a vision impairment as opposed to total blindness, because I think total blindness, you can't really avoid, um, appearing disabled. But I think we've all tried to blend in and all come to that stage where we go, oh, I have a disability. Um.

20:06 S5

And it's different for everyone.

20:09 S2

Yeah, it is, it is. But let's move on slightly to, um, the topic of this week's episode. So, so myself and Lizzie are both married and we've done the whole singles scene and sort of. Well, I don't really fancy going back to it, but you've kind of had to go back to it, haven't you?

20:36 S5

Indeed. Uh, and that was part of my vision loss journey, because as I regained my confidence, self-esteem and independence, I'm like, why am I putting up with this? So yeah, so they kind of coincide. Uh, it's definitely a whole new world. Uh, in the last, I dunno, 15 years since I was dating.

20:54 S2

That's the thing I've been picking up. In some ways, I think it's actually it sounds like it's slightly easier for, for, um, this current generation of singles to, uh, meet people because you've got these wonderful apps and things like that with this, their uh, uh, safeguards and stuff like that, as opposed to, um, me who's uh, in the late 80s and 90s going to, uh, nightclubs where I could barely see what was going on because everyone was smoking and couldn't hear what was going on because of the loud music. And surprisingly enough, no, I never picked up.

21:28 S5

Yeah. Um.

21:29 S2

It's challenging. Are are things easier nowadays?

21:34 S5

I think, uh, it's so hard. Everything has its pros and cons, right. Uh, so there's benefits and challenges to each. So online dating is really, really good because you're connected to like so many more people. And generally they're all there for the same reason. Like you generally don't join a dating app if you're not interested in dating to say that there are some like married people in there. There are some, you know, people who are just wanting to hook up and so that you've got to kind of filter through that, but then you don't know if they're interested in you. So if you're out and about, someone approaches you, then you know that, oh, they're interested in me. So in some ways it's easier. Uh, and in some ways it's harder because I do know people who will text back and forth for two years and be like, oh my God, this is my soulmate. And you've, like, you've never met them in person. How good are you ever. That's not a real relationship. So be careful of those kind of traps. Online dating.

22:25 S2

Being blind and vision impaired would be a lot easier to sort of fall into that trap, I would expect, because, uh, you know, some, some of our best work is done over the phone.

22:33 S5

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and you don't actually have to disclose either over the phone. You can just be a person. Um, so there's comfort in that.

22:42 S2

I can usually get away with not appearing disabled, as it were. Um, only people who are experts in the field, as it were. So mobility instructors, special education teachers, parents of people with a vision impairment, they can pick it straight away that I'm, um, vision impaired. But normal people in inverted commas can't. How do you go as far as that goes?

23:03 S5

Yeah, that's a really good. Um, so I do identify as visually impaired. I do use the cane, but on my dating profiles I will not disclose. Now, this is a very, very personal thing that's you know, I know some people do and they want it straight out there and they use it to kind of filter. Um, so if anyone's going to be like, oh, I'm not going to date them, then it filters them out for myself. I want to be, um, the narrator of my vision or story, and I want control of that. So I'm not letting them make up their own opinion of me, um, before I've met them. So for me personally, it's not in my profile. I'll have a chat. We'll connect. We'll talk about our interests as people. Like, what are we interested in? People? I will have a phone call like, let's meet up for coffee. We've arranged to meet up. I have a phone call. Do I like the sound of his voice? Does he sound kind? And then in that phone call, I'll say, look, um, I have a medical issue, and I can't drive. Do you mind if we meet up? You know, like at this coffee shop. And I kind of control the narrative a little bit there to make it easier for me, I might say. Oh, look, I can't see very well. I might have to have a stick. Just look out for the lady with the stick. I might not not see you. And I haven't had one rejection yet. Um, over the phone. Most guys, because you kind of build up that rapport they're eager to meet.

24:20 S2

Sounds almost like you're going for a job, doesn't it?

24:23 S5

So true. Oh, my gosh, it's so true. It is because you're vetting and you're vetting them just as much as they're vetting you. I want to know, is this person compatible with my lifestyle? Because I know what I'm looking for. I'm not letting anyone into my life because, you know, there's there's there are there's you got to filter through a lot. And in my experience, the guys that I have been on dates with, I really thought the vision was going to be an issue because I haven't dated. As someone who identifies as blind before, this is new for me. So I really thought that was going to be an issue and no one's going to want to date me. And but no, I went on a date with one guy. He's like, oh, working age care. Like I deal with people with vision all the time. One guy went on a date with, we're having coffee. He's like, oh, I used to be a principal at a blind school. I'm like, what? So he's like, it's nothing for me. So I put a lot of restrictions on myself that I didn't need to have.

25:15 S2

You had people who are sort of cautious because they feel like they might be, I don't know, taking advantage or something like that, because that's been something that we've heard. I don't know if you listen to our show with Matt, for example.

25:29 S5

That's fantastic.

25:29 S2

Yes, yes. So have you encountered anything like that yourself?

25:32 S5

I'm pretty confident in my ability to, let's say, spot a bullshitter. I have an ability to be quite discerning, so I do trust myself in that. I, I do know other clients because I also ran a tele link program for people interested in dating. Um, that that was an issue for them. And I have heard one lady actually took her support worker on the date because she was a totally blind individual. And the support workers, like, that's not the guy in the profile. He's he's catfishing you, so it can absolutely happen. It's good to have strategies in place to, to deal with those kind of kind of things.

26:09 S6

Before.

26:10 S2

We go. And by the way, it has been fantastic talking to you. I've really enjoyed this. So before I go, you have some good guidelines on how people like us can actually navigate the dating world, and we're out on a date with someone we like or whatever. So what are those rules?

26:30 S5

Yeah, so well, I like that they've said rules, but it's more just like tips, I guess, in that, you know, confidence is key. Um, and this is one thing I've talked about with a lot of people, you know, there are so many celebrities out there with vision loss, but people are still going to date them because they're a celebrity. Right? So the celebrity status trumps the vision loss. So if you think of it from that mindset, get your confidence up, be a confident person. Um, get your skills up so you're not worried about, oh, I'm so embarrassed. I like, knocked over that glass or I did that, like sometimes it's going to happen, but even started people knock over glasses. So get your confidence up and just you as a person. Uh, your interests I do here with a lot of dog users that, you know, people want to talk about the dog and it's like, okay, yeah, he's here, but we're here to talk. And so redirect that conversation back to you. Um, so confidence in yourself and your abilities to move through life, um, especially I did here last week. And then the other, uh, the other episode where people want to, like, over coddle you and stuff and so you can demonstrate, um, your abilities.

27:35 S2

That does seem to be. And this is what I've encountered myself when I was dating, is that some women have a bit of a fear that there are needy men out there, and if you've got a disability, you're going to be even more needy. And I sort of have tried to put the kibosh on that myself. So, yeah, I can sort of identify with that there. I mean, we are as independent as we want to be, but, uh, yeah, that that does, uh, ring a lot of bells. Any other tips?

28:02 S5

So we have another one here. Uh, apps and online dating. Uh, although I did hear recently that they're on the decline. So people are attending to use social media, um, to meet now, so be mindful of that. Um, but, uh, you can do it yourself most a lot of the apps are accessible. Um, there is a new app that is no pictures only. So anyone who's going on that app once is very interested in meeting people. They have a lot of following overseas in like Germany and the EU, but Australia is still getting traction. So that's another alternative to get on something like that, where you're with other people who don't value visual input as much. And then if you are like trying to go through pictures and look at look at pictures like you like, oh, I'm looking for someone like this, you can have a sighted colleague. I'm a big advocate of having visual interpreters, just as the hearing impaired community have, you know, interpreters have someone who can visually articulate or, you know, seeing eye, um, what you're. And make sure you're very clear about the filter you want to look through, not the filter that other person is looking through. So, oh, he's really cute. He's this. This. Yeah. But like, what color is this hair. What? Like what hair style is that? What clothes is. What closes he wearing? Like, get that for you. Not through their filter.

29:16 S2

It does. It sounds like you're going for a job. It does. It's all you know. Do your research, try to present. Well, uh. Be confident, know your stuff. Uh, well, to me. To me, as a married guy that's not been on the singles scene now for 25 years, it is truly interesting. I hope I never have to use your advice, but thank you very much for talking to us this afternoon.

29:42 S5

My absolute pleasure and happy dating for those that are.

29:50 S7

That's a wrap for the week.

29:51 S2

Big thank you to Karen and Sarah.

29:53 S3

And of course, a big thanks to you for listening.

29:55 S2

Next week we are joined once again by technology expert David Woodbridge as we find out how artificial intelligence or AI affects us.

30:04 S3

Between now and then. Please to get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One, whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story or insight may help somebody who's dealing with something similar.

30:18 S2

You can email us Studio One at Vision Australia. Org. That's studio number one at Vision Australia.

30:25 S3

Org or you can contact us on our Facebook page at facebook.com MVA Radio Networks.

30:32 S2

Goodbye for now.

30:33 S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio One.