00:06 S1
This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.
00:12 S2
Hello, I'm Sam...
S3
And I'm Lizzie...
S2
And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view - here on Vision Australia Radio.
00:19 S3
On this week's show, we're going back to school.
00:22 S2
We talk to a few friends and find out what has changed and what hasn't, and what we can learn from all of this.
00:29 S3
As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know - your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.
00:45 S2
You can contact us via email - studio1@visionaustralia.org ... that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.
00:51 S3
Or of course, you can drop us a note on our Facebook page by going to facebook dot com slash radio network.
01:00 S2
Hello, Lizzie.
01:01 S3
Hello, Sam. How are we this week?
01:04 S2
Oh, All flustered. We've had nothing but technical problems, and I had a very interesting thing happen to me on the train... s I was heading into work, it was standing room only, so I was standing there by the door, as I normally do, and there was this young lady across from me, and she kept on looking at me and I'm thinking, Okay, do I still have it or is there something else going on? Anyway, I get to work and I'm told that my fly's undone.
01:29 S3
Oh dear. Oh my goodness. Oh, Sam. You... poor fellow. I am in the lovely Mount Gambier as we speak on our short holiday with my husband Stephen, and we're enjoying the Blue Lake and the Tantanoola Caves and the Glenelg River cruise. It's just been all sorts of fun.
01:51 S2
Nice for some people. Anyway, we are going back to past... traumas and joys as we look at life from a blindness student's point of view. Now, you... went to school at Townsend School, I do believe.
02:08 S3
I did. I went to Townsend when it was Townsend from 1999 until it... changed to Satisfy, which was in the end of 2004. And then I continued on there until the end of 2006, which is when I finished at seventh grade. After that, though, I went to a mainstream high school, I went to Charles Campbell College.
02:32 S2
Did going to a special school prepare you? I mean, how how do you think you benefited or didn't benefit from it?
02:38 S3
Although academically I was fine, I had... not an issue, I excelled in a lot of the subjects, but the thing that I really struggled with was socialisation. So being in a primary school of 28 to 30 kids does not prepare you or equip you in any way for going to high school. I'm not tooting my own horn here, but in primary school I was the popular kid. I was the girl that was in all the music productions, all the drama plays. I was top in the class in every subject. I had it all going for me in this, in this little podunk school of 30 people.
When I went to high school, I was just another nobody. Nobody knew about my past career, like my successes. Nobody cared. more to the point. And so I went into this experience with a massive ego thinking, you know, like, I would continue to be popular. And I was just was not the case. In fact, I spent most of my first two years of high school or three years of high school feeling really out of place, and I really struggled.
03:50 S2
The first time we met, you told us an interesting story about, well, a fashion faux pas.
03:55 S3
Yeah, I think so. I in primary school I would wear my polo tops fully buttoned up and there is no problem. I had that we had polo jumpers at 62, so I would wear my collars buttoned up all the time and nobody said anything. In fact, you know, fashion - what was that? And, you know, it was never mentioned that, Hey man, when you go to high school, I wouldn't do this. So I went to high school. I used to wear my skirt below my knees, and I used to go to school with my polo shirt buttoned up all the way, and oh, man, I got picked on something fierce until I figured out, well, until I was rudely told that you should unbutton a couple of your buttons... because you look like a nerd.
So, yeah, it was horrifying. I didn't know, I didn't know that I was meant to wear my skirt above my knees. I didn't know that I wasn't meant to wear long socks. I didn't know that I wasn't meant to have my polo tops and jumpers zipped up to the teeth. I didn't know these things because primary school just did not teach me. It did not equip me for that. Nobody told me that.
05:01 S2
And, well, none of the none of your school friends or anything like that even mentioned it or anything like that. It was just came as a sort of a shock, did it?
05:09 S3
What school friends?
05:10 S2
Yeah. Okay.
05:11 S3
I went to the same high school as one other bloke, and he was part of the school gang, so I know he picked on me just as much as the rest of them did. But nobody ever told me in primary school, Hey, maybe when you get to high school, you should do this. There was no warning. I had no clue.
05:28 S2
And no visual. You weren't able to see what everyone else was wearing anyway. And I mean, that's an experience, and that should... we shall see what everybody else has to say about it. So to kick things off, we're catching up with Vision Australia Radio's own Vicki Cousins. This is the first time we've talked in quite a while, at least on Studio 1.
05:53 S4
Absolutely, yeah.
05:54 S2
So we're talking about school experiences. When did you first start school?
06:00 S4
Back in 1960, around.
06:03 S2
So let's go. Goes back quite a long way now. Did you ever go to a non-special school, as it were? Or did you spend your entire time at, say, at Townsend?
06:13 S4
I spent my whole time at Townsend. It had just started coming in when I was, you know, due for leaving.
06:20 S2
Well forward to now. And the descendant of Townsend, Sassy [Satisfy?], is Australia's last remaining special school for visually impaired people. Did you know that?
06:29 S4
No, that's... wow.
06:31 S2
So I hear all sorts of stories about the divisions sometimes you might have had between people who could see a little bit and the totally blind. Did you ever have any, say, bullying problems at... school?
06:44 S4
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I would say some of them that could see almost normally, you know, I found them the harder ones to deal with.
06:54 S2
So what sort of things would happen? I mean was it physical or just name calling or...?
06:58 S4
Oh, I had one where, she'd talk like when a deaf person talked back then. Sometimes you couldn't understand one word they'd say, so she'd talk like that and you'd think it was one of them, or she'd be standing in the library. In those days, we had library shelves that were on rollers, and she'd be standing there, so I couldn't shut the rollers and, you know, things like... that. She was not a very nice person at all.
07:29 S2
So you get bullies everywhere. It doesn't matter where you go. Well, okay, we'll go to more positive things, I mean, which for you, throughout your entire period, there were the teachers that stood out.
07:42 S4
Ah... Clarice Duffy, she was the first one I ever had. And she started me with Braille, which is my life. And John Rogers... terrific teachers.
07:55 S2
What made them stand out from the others?
07:58 S4
Well, with Mrs. Duffy, like I said, it was... teaching me Braille, but also helping to make me stand on my own feet. I guess because my parents lived... well, miles away where... I had to stay... each term in the school for the first two years. And she just helped me. Well, I didn't like it when they left, but at least she... supported me and, you know, comforted me at five years old to, you know, know they would come back. But she was also, well, she was a mum of... I think she had two children herself. And she was just really good with all of us and just wanted all of us to do the best we could.
And John Rogers, well, he took me through high school and he was just such a smart man, you know, that you could talk to about anything if you were having problems. But, you know, like one of us in the class was really good at math, but the other group weren't so good. But, you know, he didn't make divisions like that. We were all the same.
09:15 S2
That is, in fact, a criticism I've heard recently is if you were one of the star students, good at something, then yes, there would be... you'd get a lot of attention. Whereas if you were either average or not so good at something, you wouldn't get so much attention. Did you ever encounter that at school?
09:34 S4
Yes I did, there was one teacher that I finished up having for two years because there was only myself and another girl that, well, we passed. But also, you know, we were that age where we should have gone up to the next grade. I think it was grade five, and we were held back because the rest of the class didn't go up. And I thought that was totally unfair.
10:02 S2
One of the double-edged swords I've noticed with special education is people learn from each other and sometimes they can learn bad habits, but often they can also learn some really useful things. Was there any one in particular who, I don't know, taught you... some of the more useful tips about just getting around, as it were?
10:21 S4
Well, the one thing I always remember, and I don't know where it started, but if you walked around the yard, like if I walked around the yard, I wasn't allowed to hold on to anybody. You could walk alongside of him, but you weren't to hold on to them because, you know, it gave you that independence. And I guess the person you walk with, they could watch out if you're going to walk into something, I guess. But that made me feel very independent.
10:54 S2
And did that... help to shape you later on when you were in the real world, as it were?
10:59 S4
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I it may seem a really silly thing to say, but if I use a cane, I feel totally blind. But if I'm with a guide dog or I'm walking around my own area without the dog, I feel normal. And I think that came from school.
11:21 S2
Okay. Is there anything I've left out here about your school experience that you might want to sort of share with other people?
11:28 S4
I believe that our headmaster back at the time... I can't think of his first name, but Mr. Barkham anyway, was a real stickler for education. And I believe through him and John Rogers, we got the best of, what would you call it, training or education. We could... we all got through Leaving, and 2 or 3 of us even went on to Matric back in those days, at a normal, ordinary school. I didn't because I was lucky enough to get a job, but I believe it was because they were sticklers for education. All books had to be ready, like the Braille books had to be... copied so that everyone had a copy when we came back the next year. And that all had to be done before we went on holidays at Christmas. So...
12:28 S2
So he was a determined person.
12:31 S4
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And through him and John Rogers, you know, we... couldn't have done better, saying that.
12:39 S2
Is there something that you have seen, say the young people of today - I can say that now because I'm older as well - the young people today have, that would have made life so much easier if, in your educational career?
12:52 S4
Oh, yeah. A lot of the technology, I think, you know.
12:57 S2
Well... you've got some of that technology sitting in front of you right now.
13:01 S4
Yeah, but no, just some of the things they can do, like even with their phones. And that is unbelievable. You know, when we did our exams, we typed them out on a manual typewriter. But sometimes I think maybe the technology's gone too far too. So there's not that real communication. So I don't know. I do think we had the better time.
13:28 S2
Vicky, thank you very much.
13:30 S4
Thank you.
13:33 S2
Well, from the 1960s, we're moving on to the late '70s and '80s with someone that... well, I'm very familiar with - my own wife, Heidi. So it's a Sunday afternoon. We're sitting here with a glass of wine, and we're talking about something exciting, like school. Did you go... have... visiting teachers when you first went to school, or did you go straight into the special ed system?
14:00 S5
Now, I did start with visiting... teachers, and around about year three I was in a mainstream primary school and I'm not sure how it all came about, but all of a sudden I had this lovely lady visiting me every now and then just to see how I was going and making sure I was coping, and also telling me how untidy my writing was - which hasn't changed.
14:27 S2
Do you remember what life was like in school before you had any help?
14:33 S5
My teachers were all aware that I had a vision impairment. I mean, it was quite obvious because back then I was wearing the big Coke bottle glasses. Mm. But they would do their best to, you know, sit me up the front and make sure if they're showing the class something, that I got a proper look at it. So yeah, they... were aware.
14:53 S2
Were you able to keep up with the work at school? Because I know I certainly had problems with that. I was often about six months behind everybody else.
15:00 S5
No, that didn't seem to be an issue. I loved reading, I know that I just took to reading like a duck to water. So yeah, for for the most part, yes, I was able to keep up with everyone.
15:10 S2
So when did you actually move in full-time to Townsend School then?
15:14 S5
Okay, that was year six. It was sort of halfway through year five. The discussions were started, taken down there for a visit. I liked what I saw, and even though it was right across the other side of town to where we were living, I was quite prepared to to go there. I could I could see it being a good thing for me even at age ten.
15:35 S2
What was the difference between just a normal school situation and a special school situation? I mean, what what were the big things you noticed?
15:43 S5
Oh, first of all, the sizes, the size of the class - a lot smaller, there was only about around about ten of us in the class before I'd come from, you know, 30 children in a class. The classrooms were a lot smaller because of the size of the class. So we could all, they could sit us as close to the like the black borders, what we needed to... I didn't feel like it was all year. One, two, three, four, five in my class. It was year six to year eight, actually. So... but yeah, but everyone, everyone knew everyone. Everyone knew everyone's name, that was the thing.
16:19 S2
So across the whole whole school and across I mean because you had multiple disabilities there as well. So, yes.
16:24 S5
Yeah.
16:25 S2
So what do you think you got out of your time at Townsend anyway?
16:29 S5
They focused on finding things that you were good at. So instead of worrying about what you weren't good at, let's find something you are good at. Sport was very big. They really encouraged everyone to try and be good at something, at sport, even if it was anything from high jump, long jump, running, swimming, even just, I don't know, being able to catch a ball. So also music. Music was huge for those of us who wanted to partake. I certainly went ahead leaps and bounds with my... I was already having piano lessons prior to going to Townsend, but I felt like my piano playing was enhanced a lot more. I also discovered that I could sing and I really enjoyed it.
So I think what I got out of it also was just knowing that I, you know, I'd never had prior to going to Townsend, hadn't really had any exposure to other children with vision impairments. So I guess knowing that I wasn't alone and, you know, I've... still got friendships now from, you know, from my time at Townsend.
17:37 S2
Are there any teachers that sort of stand out that... for that in that period of time... that stand out to you as going that extra mile?
17:47 S5
Oh, yes. So there's Mrs. Jackson, the music teacher. She went the extra mile to make sure that when I went to high school, the high school had a good music program that I was going to because she really wanted me to succeed as far as music goes. Dennis Peck. Jennie Flood. The sports teachers, they were always encouraging. There was... my year seven teacher, Mrs. Ayres, who - yes, I was, as I said, one of her favourites. You know, when I went, when I went to high school, she was always asking because I, you know, ended up having a visiting teacher at high school as well. You know, the the message was always passed on. Oh, Mrs. Ayres says hello, and she's always asking about you and hoping that you're doing well.
18:31 S2
So, I mean, that's kind of what the role of Townshend was for you, at least, I'm guessing was to as a sort of a way of brushing up and preparing you for later schooling.
S5
Yes. Right in that one. Yes. Yes.
S2
So do you think that... did a good job in preparing you for the... mainstream education system after that, so for high school?
18:52 S5
Mm, for the most part, yes. I mean... I'm not going to lie to you, my first day of high school, I was scared as it was a big school. Lots and lots of students. I didn't know anyone who went to that school, so I kind of had to find my own way of like, you know, making friends. That... wasn't always easy for me at this stage. I was still wearing the Coke bottles. And, as you know, that's usually a target for any of the high school bullies. Oh, she's wearing big glasses, let's pick on her. So, yes. Hence term two, came back with contact lenses.
19:33 S2
How did you end up going educationally after... through high school.
19:36 S5
I would suggest I was probably an average student. I certainly wasn't straight A's. There was maybe one or two fails along the way. And I'll admit, I didn't always perhaps put in as much effort as I was probably capable of putting in, but I scraped through... well, not, I more than scraped through, I did take two years to do year 12 because we were allowed to do that, and I didn't get what was called Matric back then. I was just a SAS.. so just, yeah. So yeah, I... think I did alright.
20:10 S2
Was there anything that you thought that you weren't prepared for when moving back into the mainstream education system?
20:17 S5
I think the main thing was being prepared for the number of students mainly. But my, you know, my first primary school, it was mainstream, but it was still reasonably small because it was sort of in a semi-rural area. And then, of course, you know, the small, the smaller school community at Townsend and then going into a school that has, you know, somewhere up to 600 or 700 students, that was scary. I was always also scared of not being able to find my way around, getting lost. I mean, I'd been taken out to the school prior to starting there to be shown around, but come day one, I'd pretty much forgotten everything. And also the amount of work. I mean, the amount of work, the amount of homework. I don't think I was prepared for that.
21:06 S2
But you eventually coped anyway. You went to a rural school to start out with. And what, you finished, did you matriculate through one of the... city schools with a resource unit?
21:18 S5
Yes. So, yeah, my... high school years were interesting. I started... in a metropolitan school out in the north eastern suburbs. Then my family packed up and went to a little town called Langhorne Creek to live. And that's where I went to Strathalbyn High. And I have to say, of all my high school years, they were probably my favourite high school years. Loved that, I really did like that school. And then sadly, halfway through year 12, my second year of year 12, Mum and Dad separated. So Mum, my sister and I were moving back to the city. And I said to Mum, I have to go. If I'm going to finish high school, I need to go somewhere where I know someone.
And as as it turned out, back then, Seaview High had the special Vision Impaired Unit where they could take in 15 students with a vision impairment, and luckily they had one spot left and I knew most of the students in that unit. So and, you know, a couple of them were in year 12 with me. So that did help.
22:27 S2
And so actually having a resource unit sort of on campus, was that different to just a visiting teacher?
22:33 S5
Yes. That was basically our homeroom. So it's where we would all gather, like we'd still go and attend lessons as... normal in the regular classrooms. But we also had allotted free times. So we would go back to the unit and finish assignments or whatever, you know, in our in our free times, but also do a lot of socialising at the same time.
22:58 S2
Is there anything you wish that you'd had, that kids now have when you were going through school?
23:04 S5
No, actually, I think... I can't think of anything more that I would want... or would have wanted.
23:12 S2
Thank you for that. I hope it hasn't been too... harrowing going back to your school days.
23:16 S5
Well, you know, there are things that I, you know, do miss about that time. I mean, you know, I went through a period of, you know, the time that I was at school, we didn't have this, you know, thing called social media or smartphones or anything like that. And I think I'm all the better for it.
23:36 S2
So, dear listener, what we say at the start of the show and what we say at the end of the show, has a lot of bearing on this episode... we want to hear from you. This week's show has a very South Australian-centric theme to it, but I'd like to hear about what you over in Victoria or Darwin or Sydney or rural New South Wales, what you went through for your schooling experience? If you went to school in the 1990s, please do get in touch with us. Finally, we're finishing off with Cheryl's experience.
24:12 S6
I started at Townsend School for Low Vision Blindness and Deafness in 1981. I don't think there was more than 30 kids there. The classes were very small, between 5 to 10 kids per class, and it was especially designed to teach each individual child the skills they needed to, giving them independence. Being such a small school and small classes, one on one attention was a lot more focused on so you could learn the child, understand the child, and develop skills to give them according to that child's needs. On the other hand, when the child has had extra problems, I think there was a lack of understanding of those problems.
25:02 S3
Where did you go to high school? Because as I understand it, you didn't complete all of your education at Townsend?
25:07 S6
No. It was decided they would start to integrate the blind children, low vision children into the main community schools, which is a great idea because it helps them socialise with children that don't live with disabilities. And this was great for some children. For me, when I was 11 or 12, it was decided by the staff and the teachers that they would integrate a number of us into a mainstream high school, 1050 children, 20 blind kids amongst all of those kids in a mainstream school. For the two that I transferred with, it was great, but for me it was a daunting, overwhelming, anxiety-giving experience and I didn't cope.
I was in a class of 42 children. The teachers were great. The support network would have been great if the teachers weren't abusive. I didn't cope at that school. My good grades in primary school became bad grades in high school because it wasn't the environment I needed to have a good education.
26:15 S3
What were the challenges that you faced that made high schooling so difficult for you?
26:21 S6
I didn't cope well with a lot of noise and unfamiliar places. Most of the kids themselves didn't know how to interact with people with blindness, deafness, wheelchairs and disabilities. It was daunting to them, to the teachers themselves were great teaching the lessons I'm talking about. But with 42 children in the class, I never got that 15 to 20 minutes one-on-one support to help me with my subject. I also didn't comprehend quite a lot of what was being said to me, unless it was broken down into smaller parts and explained to me in a number of different ways.
27:01 S3
But you've also said that you went to a mainstream high school. I thought it was really interesting because when we talked about this the other night, I said that was the best experience for me. What was the difference for you?
27:13 S6
The unit at Seaview, whilst a couple of the support networks were great, the support teachers I ended up with were emotionally, psychologically, mentally and physically abusive to me and treated me like I was dumb, I was stupid, I'd never go anywhere in life because of my blindness and I basically was a waste of space. So anything I tried with them, no matter how good I did it, they put me down.
When I hit my local high school, of which my sisters both attended, the deputy head, the secretary, the the principal of the school and the visiting teacher I had in my first year there went out of their way to make sure I was given the same chance to have a good education and have a good life as any of the other kids there. And I think because there was only two of us with vision problems and one deaf child, the children were different. They accepted us and treated us as normal, which helped my grades, which were decent - Cs at the other school jumped to Bs and A-pluses. I gained confidence and a want to learn and grow.
28:28 S3
So how has your education experience impacted the rest of your life?
28:34 S6
Well, my education by the teachers was as good as they could give me. The problem I had was I had to live as a very defensive person. Everything I was good at, I told I wouldn't be good at, so they took me out of those classes. For example, I was good at craft, I was good at French. I was good at English, I still am. I was good with business, maths, I still am. I was good with cooking, home ec, basic living skills and child studies. The support network teachers at the first high school took me out of all of those subjects, almost by the time I hit year 11, I had English, mathematics and music. You can't complete an education on just three subjects. You've got to have other subjects to build on.
That meant no university degree, no tertiary education. I did after-work experience at a childcare for two one week blocks, spend 13 years as a volunteer and honorary staff member, doing 8 to 16 hours a week in a childcare centre, unpaid. But everything I've done since then I've gradually taught myself by listening to things or listening to audio books or or people and going out into the world and living independently and learning from life experiences. If I was to say I had one qualification without a certificate, it would be life skills.
30:05 S3
If there is anybody listening to this show that is going through the education system currently, or has a blind or vision-impaired child going through the education system, what would be your message to that person or to that child?
30:17 S6
To a parent? I would say, Talk to your child. Find out what they're learning. Find out what they're getting help with, find out what they're not getting help with, be totally involved and get the teacher on board as well. And make sure that if they're lacking and need extra support, there's nothing wrong with having a specialised class at a school to help and tutors to help with that, it's important to try and make them feel as normal as anybody else and encourage them. The supports are out there. Fight for it.
30:53 S2
Well, that's a wrap for this week. A big thank you to Vicki, Heidi and Cheryl.
30:58 S3
And of course, thank you for listening. You can find this program along with some extra content on Apple, Spotify, Google or your favourite podcast platform.
31:09 S2
Next week, Lizzy catches up with Peter Archer from Beyond Vision.
31:13 S3
But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know - your story or insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.
31:29 S2
You can email us - studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.
31:34 S3
Or of course you can find us on all the good social media platforms, whether that be Facebook, Instagram or X - we're looking for VA Radio Network.
31:42 S2
Bye for now.
31:44 S1
Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.
