Karan

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This is Studio One on Vision Australia Radio.

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Hello, I'm Sam...

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And I'm Lizzie.

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And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio. 

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On this week's show...

Week's show.

We play the full interview with Karan Nigrani. This interview was featured back in March. Karan talks about appearing on SBS Insight, acceptance within the LGBTQ+ community and life in general.

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As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show whether you have experience with any of the issues covered in this week's episode of Studio One, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

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Please contact us by email:  studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's studio 1 at Vision Australia dot org - or perhaps drop us a note on the studio's Facebook page. We want to hear from you. Hello, Lizzie.

01:11S3

Hey, Sam. How are you doing on this glorious day?

01:14S2

It is remarkably good out there. It's, yeah. Very surprising. It's been cold, and now it's warm again. So it's inspires you as you come in to sit here in a studio and go, all right, what am I doing now? And this is the question we had to ask this week is What are we doing now? Because there are a lot of people we want to talk to or who want to talk to us, but they want to do it next week or next month or some time later down the track. So we are at a loose end.

01:42S3

Either that or they just don't want to talk to us, but they're too polite to say it either way.

01:46S2

Last week we advertised that we're going to be speaking to Blind Sports Australia, and in the past I'd had an open invite to, yes to any time you want to catch up with us, that's great. But I was speaking to the interim CEO this morning and she said, It's not a good time.

02:03S3

Yes. Apparently it's absolute chaos over there.

02:06S2

Well, they they see the previous CEO has gone, so we can't speak to him. And yes, the... publicity person is now acting CEO, and she's still trying to work out how things work, so, not sure which button does what. And so, yes. Does not want to end blind sports as we know it.

02:28S3

Sounds like a shemozzle to me.

02:30S2

So we will be catching up with Felicity next month. But in the meantime, in March, we had an interesting problem that I had recorded four interviews and it ended up being a monster of a show. We split the show in half and broadcast Dating Blind Part Two and Part Three, but the first interview of our third part was actually a lot longer.

02:57S3

It was, and unfortunately we had to edit quite a bit of it out so that we could air the other interview that went along with it.

03:04S2

That's right. Yes. And there's some really interesting parts that we had to miss out on because it didn't quite focus on things. I mean, what I found interesting was, Karan talking about the degree of acceptance of different minority groups within the gay community. I found that absolutely fascinating.

03:23S.

I know it to me, that just speaks volumes about the human race, though. The fact that, you know, if it's if it's not one thing that you can be discriminated against, it's another thing. And it's all so confusing to me, but I'm just glad that he has... come to a place of peace and acceptance in his life and, you know, a very inspiring person to hear from.

03:43S2

Indeed. And also, have you ever wondered what it's like to appear on a show like insight on SBS? Well, we have an idea now what it's like. And yes, apparently they're not allowed to talk to each other, so the only time they can talk is when the microphones in front of them and to respond to something. So that would you be able to hold back if something if someone said something exceptional and you know, something that you did not like at all?

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I mean, I've never been known to keep my mouth shut about anything, whether it be good or bad. So I would not do so well. I like to speak up and have my voice heard. So if someone said something completely out of the realm of, you know, normal, then I would probably have a bit to say, yes.

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So without further ado, how about we hear once again from the legendary Kiran?

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Hello, Sam. How are you?

04:39S2

I am terrific. It's a very nice morning over here in Adelaide. How are things over in your corner of the world?

04:45S4

Well, Melbourne's been like a furnace, to be honest with you. And the last two days has been so pleasant. It's honestly because I'm new to Melbourne. I'm from Perth and I'm just getting used to this whole four seasons in one day, but just lately it's felt like four seasons in one week, because you've had three days where the temperature has been above 38. And then like last night when I landed, it was about, I think 14.

05:09S2

Yeah, we've been lucky in the centre of Australia. Everybody else has copped it. They've either had the rain or the or the heatwaves and we've just been scooting by quite nicely. So yes, sometimes it's nice to be in one of the more dailah parts of Australia. So young man we were expecting to catch up about 15 minutes ago. Why are you late?

05:32S4

Well, firstly, thank you for calling me young because I'm 38 and in the gay world that's like 65. So thank you. And the reason I was late was because I arrived quite late from Sydney last night. I was on SBS Insight, where we talked about the diversity dilemma, and it was quite a controversial subject because there were all these opinions that were being thrown. But I had the honor, I guess, of representing blind people that, that are, that are also gay and of colour. So it was a really interesting conversation, one sided conversation, because you weren't really allowed to interact with the other guests when the cameras were rolling. So it was hard to bite your tongue every now and then, because I'm quite outspoken.

06:20S2

That always struck me as an interesting problem to have, because you'd be coming across people that you have diametrically opposed views to, but also some people that would probably be heroes. I mean, what is it like to actually, yeah, be on a show like that.

06:34S4

It's a bit of a roller coaster because one minute someone will say something and it makes your blood boil because you're like, How can you belittle someone like me even though it's not personal? Someone from my clan, per se. And then I'm not allowed to say anything back. But then at the same time, you'll have someone else say something. And it's so lovely when you hear that, it just calms you down and you're like, okay, it's not as bad. But it was a really interesting experience for me because I got to hear different sides in person. Normally as an advocate, a lot of opinions are thrown at me, a lot of comments are thrown at me and that's online. So that is a lot easier to deal with as compared to being in a studio where you've got to be calm and composed and someone saying things like, you know. I should not have to apologise for being, for having white privilege.

07:28S2

I don't think you should have to apologize for having, for being what you are. But likewise, I don't think we should feel offended when people from other groups want to have a bit of privilege themselves. That's me personally.

07:45S4

Exactly. Yes, I agree with you 100%.

07:48S2

So I'm trying, I've... when I'm talking to people with this episode, I always find myself lost for words because I'm trying to grasp for the right thing to say. It's... quite interesting being someone with a disability myself, because I'm on the opposite side now of the desk to what people who are trying to talk to me sometimes are, because, I find that people who don't have a disability are constantly afraid of causing offence. So you have a disability, you are gay, and your background is not what you'd call your normal white Australian. 

08:28S4

Correct. So it's like I say, Sam, it's like sometimes I say it's like I've hit the the diversity jackpot. And it's not a good thing because, you know, it just it just leads to a lot of explanations. There'll be times where every time I say something, I'll get asked, which puts me in a position where I've got to explain something about myself, which on a daily basis. So like, for example, people will see a ring on my finger or what does your wife do? Well, no, I don't have a wife. I'm gay or you're gay or. But you don't look gay. Well, okay, what is the gay person look like? Oh, okay. So if I'm sitting at a restaurant and my cane is on the chair, the waiter would come up to me and then give me the menu or something, and I'll be like, Oh, sorry, I can't see it. I'm blind, you're blind. But you look fine. No, I'm actually, blindness is a spectrum. 

You know, it's a misconception that to be blind you have to wear dark glasses or have white cloudy eyes all the time. That's not true. So there's just a lot of... Oh, okay. So what's your background? Or, you know, why do you sound different? Or why aren't you white with blonde hair and blue eyes? So, you know, there's just a lot of, a lot of explaining to do, which I guess as an advocate, this is also something I've taken on. But it does get tiring every now and then. So yes.

09:44S2

Tell us a little bit about yourself. I understand you've been rather busy of late, not just appearing on TV, but you had an honour bestowed upon you recently.

09:51S4

Well, look, it's been incredible, because I'm not going to lie, when we move from Perth because of my husband's work, I was quite upset because Perth is like home to me. I moved to Perth when I was 19 and uh, we moved to Melbourne when I was 37. So for me to give up my home in a position where I have 3% sight remaining was quite a big deal. But I started my journey as an advocate two years ago and it happened by accident, actually. I'll get into that a little later. And anyway, once I moved to Melbourne, because I'm a little outspoken on social media and I talk about all these issues, I started to get approached by organisations like Midsummer, like Chill Out Festival, to be their disability ambassador and to represent gay people with disabilities. 

And just as of yesterday, I got this amazing news that I'm also the disability ambassador for Darwin Pride in June. So it's just mind blowing because I grew up in a place in time where, you know, you would never see a gay person with a disability. And now here I am, living life out and proud as a gay man with a disability, representing and trying to make these events more inclusive for people like me.

11:15S2

So let's start with some basics here though. So you have a vision impairment. What is your eye condition?

11:20S4

Sure. I have a condition called Usher Syndrome, which causes blindness and hearing loss. So I wear hearing aids, in order to hear people. The second is more than one person. In the scenario, it turns into a little bit of white noise, and I have 3% sight remaining. So I have no peripheral, no night vision. And my central vision is... less than three degrees. So essentially, I cannot leave the house without my cane. Now, an interesting question I get a lot is because I work for guide dogs. Victoria. It's like if you work for guide dogs, Victoria, how come you don't have a guide dog? And the reason for that, because I'm assuming you were going to ask me that is because I have two little rascals at home. I have two French bulldogs, Henry and Ellie, and they are so naughty that I feel like if I was to get a guide dog, they will destroy that dog's training in two minutes and I will get hit by a bus and die.

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Yeah, dogs can be a bad influence on each other. As a former Jack Russell owner myself. I do understand that. And sometimes people don't really understand that. They see these guide dogs as some sort of saintly creature that's, uh, you know, out there. But when push comes to shove, they are basically just a dog that's well trained.

12:38S4

Exactly, exactly. And there's such amazing beings, you know, and so much love and work goes into raising them and training them to change lives that it's not fair to the dog as well. Like, you know, you're raising this dog and training this dog to be a certain way, and then you bring this dog home with two other dogs that are so naughty, and it's not fair that they get allowed. They're allowed to be, you know, batshit crazy. Whereas the guide dog will need to be disciplined. And, you know, when the harness is on, that is when the harness is off. They can do whatever they want.

13:12S2

That's exactly that. Right. But anyway, back to you now. Your name is not exactly what we'd call the average Anglo-Saxon name. Tell me about your family background.

13:23S4

Absolutely. I'm glad you asked. Okay, so I was born in India. Mhm. I moved to Malaysia when I was 18 because I wanted to study arts and communication. And when I went to Malaysia... I'm not going to lie, I'm not the brightest kid. I'm not the most intellectual. I'm not, I don't have the brightest brain. And when I went to Malaysia without doing much, I was actually doing really well at uni. And my dad was a bit suspicious. He's like, Hmm, okay. Because you're always telling me you're going out clubbing and you're doing this and you're doing that. So if you're doing this well, I'm not so sure if the standard of education is that high. And because my dad was paying a lot of money for that, and he was just like, You know, if I'm paying that much money, I want to make sure you get the best education possible. 

So then the options were Canada and Australia. That came up because they were linked to the university that I was studying at in Malaysia. And my mom was just like, Canada's too far, so let's just go to Australia and then when I moved to Australia, I went to Perth and this is 2005 or 6 now. It's been so long, I just came to study and go back. But I did fall in love with Australia because I finally felt like I could be myself here. Being a gay man in India back then was a crime. Like you would actually get arrested if someone found out you were gay. So I felt quite safe here. And because there was a population shortage back then, the state government actually approached me and they were they sort of said, you know, would you consider staying on? And the only condition is you've got to stay in WA for two years. 

And that's sort of how it all happened. And now I call Australia home, because I've spent more of my life here than I did in India.

15:05S2

And you've got roots here as well now. So, I mean, as you said, you are married. So tell me about your lovely husband.

15:13S4

My husband David and I met in 2016, and we got married in 2018. So it's been I'm really lucky and really blessed because, you know, initially I was a little like, Oh, is it strange that I'm blind and I found love? Touch wood, you know, is it strange? And then, I started to talk to a lot of blind people online, and this is actually a fact. Well, an unofficial fact that blind people are luckier in love. Did you know that?

15:41S2

I wouldn't say that from my own personal experience, but...

15:46S4

But honestly, it's like almost every blind person I've met in person has been happily married. They've got kids, they're well settled. You know, it's been really, really nice. But yeah, David's an absolute blessing. We are complete opposites, but we just get along so well. In fact, the first time we met, I did not tell him about my blindness, because back then I could see a lot better and I did not take my cane to the to the date. And what happened was the date was going a little awkward because I'm vegetarian and he ordered chicken feet and he's eating like chicken feet and I'm like, trying not to throw up. And then we just sort of decided, Okay, let's let's just go grab a coffee or hot chocolate after. And it was night time. So I said to him, you walk ahead and I'll follow you. And he found that strange, because that's a strange thing to say to someone if you don't know they're blind. Right? But you walk ahead. I'll follow you. 

And then I was following him and he was quite suspicious. He's like, what's going on here? You know? Are you okay? Are you okay? A lot of that was happening. And then we went to the dome, and as soon as I got my hot chocolate, I knocked it and it went all over the table and his lap. And I was so embarrassed that I just said, okay, I've been lying to you. I actually have a disability. I should be using my cane. I'm blind. And the second I said that,whatever nervousness or anything we both had, it just went because it was just like from my side, all my cards on the table. Now, I've told you like a big, big secret, and we bonded so much over that. And just the rest is history. One thing led to another.

17:20S2

So tell us about what it's like to actually be a blind gay person trying to, I don't know, get by trying to find love or whatever else goes with it.

17:33S4

I'm not going to lie. It's not easy. I'm not going to sit here and make it sound like, Oh, it was so easy. I just happened to meet people because as as a gay man, I feel like I can say this, and I'm hoping there are some other gay people out there that can relate to what I'm about to say. I get frustrated with the gay community because we are constantly wanting acceptance and to be embraced by straight people, and we want to be loved just as much as them. Yet within the gay community, there's so much hatred, there is so much discrimination. And I'll give you a little example. So if you're single and you're gay, you probably heard of the app called Grindr, which is like a dating slash hookup app. It's not uncommon to see profiles where the heading says GWWM for GWWM, which is gay white man. For gay white man, there are profiles that say No rice, no spice, no chocolate, which is pretty much saying I only want a white person. 

So, you know, this is the state of the gay community sometimes where there's so much discrimination. Now, you add to that having a disability, who on earth would feel desirable if you have a disability? So what that did was it led to a lot of stress because I felt like I had to really hide my disability, which put me in positions where I was actually putting my. It sounds dramatic, but my life at risk because I would go out at night and I would not take my cane because I was too scared to be judged. And for some reason everyone wants to meet at night. So I kept saying, let's, you know, let's catch up for coffee in the morning. And they're like, why do you want to meet in the morning? Let's meet at night. So it was a lot of pushing, you know, to make it more convenient for me. Not because I'm lazy or anything. Make it more convenient so I don't come across as someone with a disability. 

And then what it did was even when I would meet someone in the morning or the afternoon because I went without my cane, which meant I would be walking into things, I would just pretend to be drunk or hung over. And it was that bad that, you know, in retrospect, I'm like, what's wrong with you? You would rather come across as an alcoholic than someone with a disability. Why? So it's not easy. It's definitely not easy. And this is why I feel really blessed and lucky, because it's not easy for people to find love in the gay community in general, let alone having a disability.

20:04S2

I think that in some ways it's become a little easier with these apps. I mean, I in mind you, you did say that the Grindr is, for example, a discriminatory. But at least nowadays you can arrange to meet somebody. I'm a fair bit older and yes, you just hope for dear luck really that you just show up somewhere and hope you can meet somebody. But I think you've got an interesting story to tell about meeting that special somebody who was not what they seemed.

20:36S4

Oh yes. Oh my God. Okay, fine. This is going to really embarrass me. But it's a funny story. So I'm going to tell you. Right. Okay. So this would have happened when I was in my late 20s and oh no, it would have been in my 30s. I was recently out of a long term relationship, so I was a little, you know, when you're just, you're just broken up. You want to party, you want to drink a little bit more. And I'm not the sort of person that will hit on someone. I'm quite shy that way. I come across as quite outspoken. But like when it comes to things like this, I'm quite shy. And there's one night I've gone to this club and I've had a few drinks and I'm, you know, like feeling really confident and I see this really cute guy across the floor and he was standing by himself. So I'm like, oh, poor guy. He's alone and he's cute. Let me go talk to him. 

So I go there and now keep in mind there's the club. There's, you know, loud music. I didn't wear my hearing aids because it's too much in a club when you've got hearing aids and the music is so loud. So I'm talking to this guy. Occasionally the lights would flash, I would see his face. I'm like, yeah, he's really cute. So the conversation went on for maybe at least an hour. And I'm not going to lie, when that person said something to me, I wasn't really... registering because it was so loud. So I'm still flirting. And it goes on and on and on. And then at the end, the club is closing, so the lights come on, and it turns out that this guy was actually a lesbian with very short hair, dressed in a shirt and pants. So I spent an hour hitting on a girl who was into girls. When I'm a guy who's into guys.

22:08S2

For some reason that just rings so many bells for me. Uh, that is so typical of what a vision impaired person would do. So why I wanted you to tell that story is I think that you will have, um, people listening now that would just identify so much with that. That is, uh. Yeah, that is just so, uh, amazing. Really. So...

22:32S4

I'm glad. What brings me shame brings comfort to other people.

22:36S2

We all have these embarrassing moments. This is the whole thing. I mean, we... don't necessarily, you know, because our eyes don't work the way that other people's eyes do. Then, yes, we will make these mistakes. It's... nothing to be embarrassed about, really. It's nothing to be ashamed of. That's what it comes down to.

22:55S4

And, Sam, in that moment, I could have died. I was so because, you know, she probably told me a few times that she, she would have dropped hints because she would have just she would have sort of figured it out that, okay, this guy can't really tell or whatever. And she would have said a few things, but she was so lovely and so kind. She just stood there the whole time just talking to me. And yeah, when the lights came on, I could have died. Honestly, I was so embarrassed.

23:19S2

It would have been worse if you'd had a white stick, because then it would have been, um. Oh, oh, okay. This is a blind person I'm going to be. I'm going to be polite.

23:27S4

I think it would have been better if I had a stick, because then she would have known the whole time that this person is blind. He clearly can't tell the difference.

23:35S2

One of the stereotypes one would have with someone from an ethnic background. As you said, India was not exactly the most tolerant place regarding people. Well, homosexual people in general. What was your family like with this? Were they, you know, absolutely gobsmacked and horrified when you came out, or is there a different story there?

23:57S4

So I grew up in a household that was quite progressive, to be honest with you. My friends that are Australian have heard stories that I've told them about my family and the things we do and the things we say, and they've actually gone like, Wow, my parents look conservative, or they look like Mormons next to yours, you know? So I'm just putting a little bit of background there that my family is really progressive. Having said that, my dad was an army officer. When you're an Army officer, the is quite clear. That men should be men. This is how you live, period. But my parents were quite open minded and I was not. I didn't come out to them. I was actually outed. 

It's a funny story in retrospect, but basically, my dad bought me a new phone, so I gave my old phone to mum. This is when I was in Australia and my mum is blind. Mum has the same condition as I do and also back then they weren't really like the phones, weren't really smart phones, right. So you didn't really think of things like deleting your sandbox or deleting certain things, like you would think if I delete my inbox is done. So anyway, my mum would have complained to my dad that the phone was really slow. So my dad did some, you know, he was inspecting the phone and trying to sort of delete folders. And I think that's where he saw some messages that made it fairly obvious that I was flirting with guys, and guys were flirting with me. 

So I just got a call from my mum randomly. I remember I had just come back from class and mum was like, Who's Matt? And I was like, huh? And then she's like, And who's Jacob? And I'm like, Sorry, who? What are you talking about? And she mentioned a few other names and that's when the penny dropped and I was like, shit, what has happened? And then mum just laughed and she was like, son, your secret's out. It's okay. We know. And my mum was saying to me, It's okay that we know, but I got so angry because I think when you're outed, you feel betrayed. And I was also shocked. So I just completely shut down, yelled at her, and I hung up, and I didn't speak to my mum for like, three days, whereas we would talk, like, twice a day, you know, sometimes. 

So then after that, when I called her, we talked it out and she was like, you know, I did cry for two days. And I said, why did you cry? And then she actually said, I didn't cry because you're gay. I cried because I'm mourning the loss of a certain image that I had of my son, which would be he would get married to a woman. We would have grandkids, that sort of stuff. So look, like I said, my parents were in fact, my maternal grandparents were so progressive that coming out to them was actually easier than coming out to my mum. So my experience with coming out, uh, is not an example of what it's like for a typical Indian family where someone says their child is gay or lesbian.

26:50S2

I wouldn't think there would be such a thing as a typical Indian family. I mean, when it's one of the largest countries, there's one of the largest, one of the largest countries on Earth. So, I mean, there would be people of all sorts of shapes and sizes there. I'm thinking.

27:02S4

Absolutely. But in India, like culture and values and tradition, these things are quite big. Look, obviously things are changing. I have like I said, I've spent more of my life in Australia than there. So when I go back now and I see things, I cannot relate to it, I'm like, Wow, you know, what is this? I can't even believe that this is happening in India. So, in many ways, India's very progressive and in many ways it's extremely traditional and conservative. So when I say a typical traditional Indian family, I mean one where, you know, you expected to have an arranged marriage or, you know, you're supposed to have kids by the time you're 30 or 25 or something like that.

27:42S2

Well, I think we've run out of subject matter, but it's been terrific talking to you, and I hope we get to talk to you again some other time.

27:50S4

I would love that. This was so much fun. Sam, thank you so much for having me. And like I said, I can go on and on and on and on. So yeah, we definitely need more time next time.

28:05S2

And that's a wrap for the week.

28:07S3

A big thank you to Karan for featuring on this week's show, and thanks again for listening. What are we doing next week, Sam?

28:14S2

Oh, I have got the biggest surprise for you. And I know you're going to absolutely love this.

28:20S3

Oh, I have a bad feeling about this already.

28:23S2

We're doing athletics.

28:26S3

Athletics?

28:27S2

Yep. So I will be meeting you at an athletics oval. You will be running and throwing things and hopefully not running into me and throwing things at me.

28:37S3

I will make sure to throw everything at you.

28:39S2

So also we will be catching up with a few of my old friends from the, my Paralympic years and a few new friends who are competing at these. Well, hopefully because the teams haven't been announced, hopefully competing at these Paralympics.

28:54S3

Sam, I wasn't really aware that you had any friends.

28:57S2

Well, don't tell them that.

28:58S3

Yeah.

29:00S2

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this episode of Studio One, or if you think there is something new we should be talking about, you never know. Your story and insight may help somebody else who is dealing with something similar.

29:14S3

That's right, you can email the show at studio one at Vision Australia. Org, that's studio number one at Vision australia.org. Or you can drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com slash VA Radio Network.

29:28S2

And we're still on X. We've checked I've checked it. And yes, we are one of the few users still there. You can, uh, check out our Twitter page. That's x.com/va Radio Network. Goodbye for now.

29:43S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio One.