00:04 S1
I've got a beautiful black Labrador named Tyson. He's been with me since 2020 and he was a game changer for me. He really was. I came into my life right at the right time. He's a huge part of, I guess, getting me back out into community, especially after Covid and and breaking through barriers. I don't have to rely on anyone. I can just, you know, instead of those days of jumping in your car and just getting away now, I put the harness on and go over to the park. I still can do it. I'll step out of. Yeah, he's still my he's my eyes. He's my, yeah, he's just a strength of mine.
S(ID)
This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia radio.
00:55 S2
Hello. I'm Sam.
00:56 S3
And I'm Lizzie.
00:57 S2
And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view here on Vision Australia Radio.
01:02 S3
On this week's show...
01:04 S2
How do you get around? Do you prefer to use a white cane, rely on others to get you about? Or possibly the trusty old dog? Maybe you use neither.
01:13 S3
We ask a few friends how they get out and about.
01:16 S2
As we always say at this point, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience of any of the issues covered in this episode of Studio 1, or if you think there is something we should be talking about. You never know. Your story and insight may help somebody who is dealing with something similar.
01:29 S3
You can contact us via email at studio1@visionaustralia.org ... that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org. Or perhaps you could drop us a note on our Facebook page at facebook.com slash VA Radio Network.
01:44 S2
Hello, Lizzie.
01:45 S3
Hey, Sam, how are you going today?
01:47 S2
I'm actually pretty good. It's been... even though it's been a sort of a miserable old day. I've had a nice walk in... I don't know about you, but if I've had the opportunity to take a longer walk on the way somewhere, so I've got a choice. I can either take an hour bus ride to get me here, and it takes me to right to the... doorstep. Or I can take a slightly shorter train ride, and it'll take me about 15 or 20 minutes to walk here. And I take the long... the shorter train ride, the longer walk, because at least it gives me a bit of exercise.
02:19 S3
I love that, uh, well, for me, I have to walk in order to get here anyway because... I live about 850m away from an interchange, so I then, you know, I have to walk to the interchange in order to catch the bus here. There's no other way for me to get here unless I get driven. And since I don't have the luxury to get driven around everywhere, you know, it's always involves a bit of walking for me, which I love.
02:43 S2
You recently, though, found that you could actually get to and from the... bus terminal now on your own wings, as it were.
02:50 S3
Yeah. So there's other two ways that you can get there. The interchange is situated on a very busy road with a very confusing intersection with slip lanes as well, so that's really hard to circumnavigate. However, I have found that by going down through Linear Park, I can cross under that intersection and come up and be right there by the interchange and just turn in, and it just makes things so much easier. And it's such a nicer walk because you've got the park and the trees and all, you know, the nice sort of stuff and not so much traffic and noise.
03:24 S2
How does using a guide dog make that whole experience different? I mean, would it would it be twice as hard if you would, say, tapping your way along using a white cane?
03:33 S3
Well, yeah. Firstly, Lacey makes things quicker. I can walk at my normal, you know, six Ks an hour and I'm fine. And, you know, I can just stroll along or strut along, I guess. But with a cane, you really have to slow down, I find. And you have to be extremely observant and be switched on all the time. I think that's the main difference for me with using a dog versus a cane is you can sort of zone out a little bit mentally at points, especially if it's a longer walk with a lot of straighter sections. You can, you know, you can almost sort of just go on autopilot. Whereas for me, when I'm using a cane, there's a lot of anxiety involved and it takes just all of my mental energy just to focus on, you know, go to turn here and, you know, you got to know your landmarks a lot more with a cane.
04:19 S2
And I suspect, though, that also that Lacey would remember certain journeys and go, Oh, you're going here. So a lot of the brain work would be actually done by the dog. Yeah.
04:31 S3
And it's really interesting you should say that actually, because sometimes if there's a particular journey or a multiple journeys that go along one particular route or share the same sort of route, she will often guess the wrong one. So, you know, we might be going to the shops instead of the interchange or the doctor's surgery, and she'll turn to go off to the interchange. And I'll have to say, No, Lacey, we're going to the shops today, but as soon as we walk past it, she she then knows where we're going. So, yeah, a lot of the brain work is done by the dog, but, you know, I'm lucky. Lacey's very smart.
05:03 S2
The studio here is upstairs. It's on the level one as opposed to the ground floor. There are two ways of getting up. There's a rather steep flight of stairs and a rather creaky old lift there. And I noticed every time we come in that Lacey automatically directs you towards the lift. How many times has she taken the lift?
05:22 S3
A lot. Yeah. So, you know, when we go to hospital and things like that, there's not really any stairs that you can access. It's all done by lift. So she's used to getting in and out of lifts. She's trained to get in and out of lifts. Sometimes we take the lift when we go to Tea Tree Plaza instead of the escalators if they're too packed. But yeah, she can spot a lift a mile away. But you know what? I think she just doesn't like stairs. She's slacking off a little bit, you know?
05:49 S2
Anyway, enough about us. We will go to our first guest who is a very old friend of mine. I've known her since the 1988 Paralympics actually. So an interesting that we're now in a Paralympic year. Let's hear from the incomparable Jody Willis Roberts.
06:09 S4
I don't I'm not... vision impaired enough. I mean, not literally blind, but I'm noT, I guess I would be eligible for a guide dog, but I haven't gone down that route. My hubby... has a guide dog who's sitting next to me having a snooze right now. Usually if I'm somewhere different, like an airport or somewhere, that's, you know, very unfamiliar. I might whip out the old white cane. It'd be more like an ID cane. Other times I'll just... stand there like a stunned mullet trying to... work a monocular or... something like that. I find actually traveling in Brisbane, because we live up in Queensland, so if I've got to go to Brisbane, I find it difficult down there with the buses... like some of the major bus ways where, you know, five buses could all pull up at once and I wouldn't know which bus was which. So that gives me the air. So I try and travel by train, because at least I can count the number of stations that I've got to go to or something like that for sure.
07:16 S3
And so what tools and methods do you use to travel independently through unknown places, whether it be like a GPS or a mobile app?
07:25 S4
Yeah. Generally I'll try and use the city's public transport app. I've found the one in Brisbane to be pretty good. You can pretty much get to where you want to go without too many troubles. Except for, as I say, if there's a major bus stop, I'll try. And there's a bus station there. King George Square, I think it is. They. The buses will only pull up at a particular door there. So I try and use places like that rather than an open busway.
08:02 S3
So funny you should say that, actually, because I found bus stations to be really confusing, like interchanges, especially if there's, like more than one bus coming at the same time to a particular zone. You know, they pull up behind each other and it's sometimes it's very hard to gauge whether there's another bus there and if it's your bus. Like today, I had to chase down the J1 just to get it. So yeah, I think public transport can be another thing that determines whether you use a dog or a cane. What about you, Sam? How do you catch the train? Do you find it hard to get them to the right platform and things like that?
08:37 S2
I like the trains here because they, there's only one. The majority of times there's only one platform and there's a nice little talkie box. You push the button and it will tell you which platform things are on and where you're going and if something's running late. When I first came down here, I was a bit confused because I really did not know my way around Adelaide. And the assumption when you're asking directions from people is that you've always lived here.
09:01 S3
Oh, yeah.
09:02 S2
That's, yeah, that is smallest, smallest cities like Adelaide are like that. People just assume that you've always lived here. So, I mean, I was at Mawson Lakes and I said, Is this the train that gets me into the city? And the guys said something like, Well, it is pointing west. And I was like, Gee, thank you. That's very, very helpful. Yeah. I mean, there weren't even any signs saying to the city or to Gawler or something like that. So they've fortunately now fixed that. So you can actually see signs in that. But that's, I'm sure that's not just a Blinky who's just moved here from the humble old city of Darwin that would have that problem and... well, yeah. And we've suddenly morphed into the subject of public transport, which is... an interesting thing is a lot of people you've talked to haven't stayed on topic. It's really annoying.
09:50 S3
Is what it is.
09:51 S2
Who are we talking to next anyway? This sounds like Carly now, bizarrely enough, I have met Carly before, have you? She would not probably remember because she was very young. Her father, Chad Townes, was in the same apartment... as I was at the Seoul Paralympics.
10:10 S3
Yes, I remember she you told me that. And, yeah, she told me about her famous, legendary dad. I was going to meet Carly, a couple of weekends ago at the Queensland State Championships of Cycling. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get there, so I missed that opportunity. But I'd love to meet her. She sounds like an absolute legend.
10:28 S2
And, well, her father was something else, let's put it that way. I never really quite got the hang of why he would have his early morning yell, but, that's probably for another day. Let's hear from Carly.
10:45 S1
When I went up to last year to the Gold Coast to the Tandem Bike Week camp, I had to because I didn't know what was at the other end. I had never even met these people and I did take my cane. But I do like traveling with Tyson because he gets me really good seats.
11:05 S3
He does. Yes.
11:07 S1
So and plus Tyson's great to travel with. He's really, he's such a, he's a big black Labrador. He weighs about 36 kilos. Wow. And yeah, he's a big boy and I'm only, what, five foot one, five foot two on a good day. So yeah, the match up was like, will this work? But he's just a big, gentle giant. Yeah. So but he comes into a taxi, you know, travels with me. We get a taxi to work of a morning and I drop my son off at school, and then, you know, he curls up in my legs. If I was any bigger, that wouldn't work. But because I'm only short, he can squeeze in my legs and it's not a far distance. But yeah, he's a good dog, I would take him if I knew at the other end I could accommodate him, which it's not down to. It's just because we're going to do events and things like that. We won't be in the house. Yeah. And he can't come on the tandem unless we get, bring our dogs and we get trailers for the bikes. Hey. Yeah.
12:12 S3
Somehow I don't think we'll be winning many races.
12:14 S1
And that doesn't matter where they're... that's it.
12:18 S3
So what tools or methods do you use to travel independently in unknown areas, whether it be like GPS or mobile apps? How do you get around?
12:28 S1
OK, I did have to do training at the beginning of the year in Sydney. Mm. And Tyson and myself got dropped off. Mum took us to the petrol station and we ventured into Central. Now I've been in there many times and I'm pretty good. I'm really good with direction. That's one thing I am good with, but when you go to a train station that no longer looks like it did, and I luckily have also practice meditation and breathing and things like that, because I did have a mini anxiety attack because, like, I could feel nobody wanted to even ask, Are you okay? Do you know where you're going? Probably five minutes. And somebody did say, Are you OK? And I said, I just need to find the country platform. And they went, Oh, the escalators moved. It's right over the back now. And I just went, thank you.
So it has had a huge shift because people just head down on their phones headphones in and don't want to know. So that was a daunting. It's not something I would want to do every day. I knew it was only two days back and forward in the city, so I was pretty confident with that. But it's not something I think I'd want to do on a five days a week. I just wouldn't want to do it. People don't care as well because Tyson is such a big, big dog. He doesn't reverse nicely into seats. So and especially because he's black, I literally had to, um, put my leg around him because people didn't see him. No. And they were kind of stepping on him. And I just went, Oh, I don't like this. And I'm, I found I was saying sorry for something that people should have seen.
14:13 S3
That's right. Yeah. And that's a big thing too. Like with Lacey. That's my seeing eye dog.
14:18 S1
Because I love that.
14:19 S3
Yeah, because she's so petite. And we've got a specially made custom leather harness. She kind of huddled up under the seat. Looks like a bag. And the amount of people that have kicked her or. Yeah, like. And it's just a case of saying, well, you know, maybe you should either (A) look properly or (B), even if you do think it's a bag, respect people's property.
14:43 S1
Yeah, and it was really crazy because the first day we went in there, I was anxious and I was very like uptight. And it was like he... would make a really good pet therapy dog. Like, my son's on the spectrum. He's autistic and he really helps my son out as well. He's just that dog that's got that trait. And the first day he he knew how anxious I was and he just even put his paw on my leg or put his head lean up against me. And we got there and got home. And then the second day when we were, because we had to catch two trains, when we got to the second train, somebody had trodden on him. Then he was anxious. Yeah. So I was able to support him. It was really wasn't until I reflected back that I went, Oh, wow. You know.
15:28 S5
Mm.
15:28 S1
Yeah, that was, that was, the process with that. So, yeah, it's it's not something I'd want to do every day because people just don't, you know, it's like I felt like I shouldn't have been there at times, but then I just thought, I'm, I'm allowed here as much as you're allowed here. And so is he.
15:53 S2
Well, a couple of things to unpack there. Quite a lot. Yeah. So one of the things there is why are we expected now to watch out for people on their mobile phones?
16:03 S3
It's... well, considering, you know, our impairment is our vision, it's quite ridiculous a notion, really. But the other thing that I found really interesting is how she talked about the anxiety and how the dog helps to negate that, because I found that with Lacey as well, you know, I, I don't particularly like traveling on crowded public transport or being around a lot of traffic noise. It does... cause quite a bit of anxiety for me. And Lacey is always quite a grounding influence, which, you know, I think a lot of people who have dogs find that in common as well.
16:38 S2
Well, she's very relaxed at the moment. We heard her snoring while we're listening to that.
16:41 S6
Yeah. She was, she was.
16:42 S3
In a deep sleep.
16:44 S2
The other thing as well is yeah, occasionally if you've been to somewhere before and they've had the audacity to change things around, that is something that even I've had problems with, uh, entering, say, a shop or something like that, or even... an airport or whatever. And you go, I thought I knew my way around here, but this is and I've even been known to sort of walk inside somewhere and look around and then walk out again because it's like, I've obviously gone into the wrong building.
17:14 S3
Yeah. Not so long ago in the major shopping complex, it's not too far from me, they had these renovations done, and so a whole bunch of stores got moved or shut down temporarily. And I remember walking around looking for a certain thing and someone saying to me, It's being renovated at the moment, the whole floor is being renovated, so like ten stores have been shut down and, you know, aren't there. And that really threw me for a six because I was like, what? I don't understand, this is just throwing my whole routine out of whack, which is crazy. You know, people moving things, changing things. Change happens all the time. It's inevitable.
17:53 S2
But the thing is, is that we see with our brains, and if things get changed around, we have to think a little bit harder, which is often a little bit harder, harder on us as well. So yes. So even to the point where if someone changes something around in a room, they really should be letting us know that they're doing it, otherwise they might lose that thing.
18:11 S3
My dad used to do that to me all the time as a kid. Mm.
18:14 S2
So now we are talking to a new member of our Choir of Angels.
18:20 S3
Yes. This is Emma. Emma actually emailed us about an episode that we had done last year, and I found out that I knew her from Braille music camp, and we got in touch with her recently to answer some questions, and this was one of them.
18:38 S7
I prefer to use a white cane simply for the reason is they don't require a lot of maintenance and responsibility. You can just fold them up and put them away. Guide dog... I'm such a sook when it comes to animals. I'm very soppy and I would... yeah, that, just for that main reason, I'm too soppy. I would struggle to treat them like a working dog and it's never appealed to me to get a guide dog.
19:07 S3
So what tools and methods do you use to travel independently, such as GPS, Google Maps, things like that?
19:17 S7
The main tool obviously, is my cane and the confidence to ask for help if I ever get lost. I have used Google Maps now this is something that's really... annoying to me when it comes to maps or Google Maps. I don't like it when they say Head east on this street. Head west on that street. It's like, well, which way is east? Which way is west?
19:48 S3
Oh, yes. That's very annoying.
19:51 S7
I know, but I've learned that I haven't got it yet due to it being rather pricey, but I believe people are beginning to use ERA a lot more when it comes to giving directions where they phone up IRA and get assistance from that.
20:16 S3
So IRA, I have actually used not as a mobility tool. The whole idea of IRA is that you ring up and somebody on the other side of the world, it could even be, will pick up. And if you point the camera at something, it'll tell you. They'll tell you the color. They can help you read the labels, they can help you to, you know, just read a letter or something like that. But I have heard of people using any mobility, like in a mobility sense, going around and saying, Oh, what's the sign on this shop? Or I wouldn't do that just because there's so much noise around, you know, with the general traffic, and then you're trying to talk to somebody on the other side of the phone, it could be quite difficult, but IRA is a very useful app.
20:59 S2
But this was another cane user, and this is my observation on cane usage. I was taught how to use long cane. Right. And it was okay, you've got to have it centered. And so what it comes down to is there are two. There are two main techniques. There's the one they tell you to do. And then there's the one you end up using. Because who has the energy to... point the end of a cane to your belly button? Your arm gets sore, so you end up with your arm dangling by your side, waving this damn thing thing around. And, well, that's at least my observation.
21:37 S3
Not to mention, Sam, that if there's cracks in the ground, like, how many times have you been walking along with your cane, you get stuck in a crack in the ground and you get impaled?
21:47 S7
Exactly.
21:47 S3
So it is painful. They should ban canes outright. Dogs for everyone. I say dogs for everybody. Dogs for everyone.
21:54 S2
Okay. I mean, the other use of a cane, of course, is that at least it it... advertises that, hey, you can't see. But as we've already talked about, when people are on their mobiles, well.
22:06 S3
That's where you've come to. The other use, Sam, is you use them to aggressively move people out of your way or alert them to your presence.
22:15 S2
Yep. There's that, that ball at the end. If you whack it down on on concrete, it makes a lovely clack noise which can often make people jump. Yes. And But yeah, obvious. Maybe. Maybe they should supplant the Kane with something a bit... more heavy duty. So if someone trips it over, they won't bend. It won't bend.
22:34 S3
Well, I wasn't talking about tapping it on the ground, but we, you know, we probably shouldn't promote violence. The other thing that Emma said that I found really interesting was she's too sooky for a dog. Now, this is a massive misconception though. I've had to bust quite a lot of times people think that we're cruel to our dogs because we don't feed them in public. We talk to them sternly when they misguide us. And, you know, people see that relationship as a very cruel, stern, loveless relationship. But it's not. They have to be on their best behaviour in order to ensure our safety. So we need to be quite stern with them. We're not being cruel. And when it comes to like being home and just off harness, they're a normal pet. But when we're out in public, we need to keep that strict standard and abide by those rules. And so it's not it's not cruelty at all.
23:24 S2
Next person we are talking to is a friend of the show, but also he hosts another show. We're talking to Sam Collie, who has a slightly different way of looking at things as well.
S8
People have recommended that I am pick up an ID cane for when I'm in super crowded, parts of the CBD. So far I haven't needed one and I haven't really felt the need to piuck one up and all that sort of thing. I had a bit of, I guess, a complicated relationship with the idea of a mobility aid with the vision I do have, because there are so many people out there with, considerably less vision who have much more of a need for these things. I don't, for whatever reason, there's just a thought in my mind occasionally that I don't need that sort of thing. And it's not really something that I feel entitled to. And I know that's not grounded in any truth by any respect.
24:44 S2
The eyes using white canes. And this was something that I grappled with myself. So as I was in my late teens when I got a white cane because I thought that it would actually allow me to get through busy areas a lot easier. And I gave up using the damn thing. I have an ID cane, which I don't use anymore. But it's a sort of a nice to have. It's a handy to have. But I find nowadays that, um, the hang ups with it are not worth the conveniences. Mhm. The last straw that made me give up on a long cane was I got onto a train, or maybe it was a bus and an old lady offered me her seat.
25:24 S3
Oh no.
25:26 S2
And I went right. No that is that...
25:31 S3
It's funny you should say that, Sam, because I am perfectly capable of standing. And even if I want to stand, I get shoved into a seat. It's almost like you're harassed to take the seat, even though, to be honest, if like when I've had my cane in the past and I've wanted to stand, they won't allow me to stand. It's almost like a complex.
25:51 S2
And quite often some other people need the seats more. That was the thing. And this was the thing. An old lady, and she was quite frail. So... and on the train, as I'm heading home today, most likely I won't be able to get a seat. And I don't care because at the moment I'm sitting down and after we've edited this show, I'll have been sitting down all day, so it's nice to actually stand up for a while.
26:12 S3
I agree, you know, with the dog it's a little bit harder. Although when we used to catch the tram in the city, I'd always have to stand just because of how crowded they were. At 5 to 9 in the morning, everyone's going to work. So we didn't mind standing. But with the guide dog, it is easier to sit because you then can stow them under the seat and they're not in the way. But I do remember the old days of standing in the tram, shoulder to shoulder, Lacey crammed down by my feet, you know, safely and securely tucked behind all these people. But, you know, it's it's crazy. We don't always need to sit down, especially if our needs are less than than those around us.
26:52 S2
The last person we are talking to is Stephen Kemp, and again, he has a slightly different vision on these things.
27:04 S9
I've my my preference is is definitely neither, but I'll add in, the children are pretty good there. I've got a seven and four year old. They're both pretty good. And I say guide dogs are like four year olds. So, the four year old does a pretty good job and the seven year old does even better. And then I'd probably go, guide dog, just because of the companionship and the and the and the joy they bring. But I don't overly enjoy being harassed by the public for that. Being an introvert. But, when I have to use the character...
27:38 S7
So you have a guide dog, don't you?
27:40 S9
Retired, yeah.
27:43 S7
So you did?
27:44 S9
Yeah. So, he's only just retired, oh, 12 months ago now. But, we do. Yeah. Obviously still walk him and stuff. And so we'll do like a, a walk to kindy and school and stuff and then for exercise. But I'll use him still as a, as a semi aid. Still he's, he doesn't have his harness or any of those things, but he'll he'll still do his job a little bit. Still there still puts the brakes on Nvidia if there's a hazard or something. But as I say I still got the kids and stuff.
28:16 S7
So just expanding on that question, are there any situations that you've been hit in where you would have preferred to take the cane over the dog or vice versa?
28:26 S9
So I got my... subcontract job doing massage at a chiropractor. Just before, Debbie retired, and so I decided not to take him to that job because it was a small room doing massage. You walk around the table. There's nowhere overly to keep him or tolerate him during the day. So I left him home for that. That job, and it was only around the corner. So, getting there wasn't a big problem either. So that's one I tended to take Toby everywhere because I'm a bit stubborn and arrogant, so I'm quite willing to make the argument that if I'm allowed to take him. And so, I'm allowed to take him. So I'm going to. And these situations may not be necessarily the, say, a Our restaurant or a closed shop, the aisles too close together. I got maybe not overly accessible for the guide dogs or wheelchair or whatever it might be. I'm quite willing to have that argument, to advocate for others as well.
29:37 S3
That's hilarious to me because... Stephen's son, my stepson Jesse, has a blind mother and a blind sister and a vision impaired father. And so he's quite used to guiding people around in a whole family where he's the only one with full sight. I remember we went to the pictures a couple of weeks ago, and I didn't take my dog and I couldn't find my cane. And so, you know, Stephen would be using his cane and, Jesse would guide me. And he's a really good guide, you know, and I think that's the one of the perks of growing up with a vision impaired family. You sort of learn how to guide people right from the offset.
30:15 S2
We spoke to Phillip Devereaux earlier on in the year, and I can remember when his first son, Richard, was barely toddling, and he'd already learnt that if he saw dad walking towards him, he would make some sort of noise.
30:30 S10
Oh, that's cute.
30:31 S2
So he'd be lying on the floor or something like that, and Phil would be moving along and go, Ah, and Phil would dodge him.
30:36 S3
That's very smart. Very smart kid.
30:44 S2
That is all we have time for today. Who are we thanking?
30:47 S3
We would like to thank Jody, Carly, Lisa, Sam, Collie and Stephen for your input today.
30:54 S2
And of course, thank you for listening. Next week, Surf's up, as we talk to Matt Formston, Paralympian and surf champion, about the blind, see a documentary being released in cinemas on the 14th of August.
31:07 S3
But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show. Whether you have experience with any of the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something that we should be talking about, you never know. Your storied insight may help someone who is dealing with something similar.
31:23 S2
Our email address is studio1@visionaustralia.org ... That's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.
31:29 S3
Or of course you can look us up on our socials. Just search for VA Radio Networks.
31:35 S2
Bye for now.
31:37 S(ID)
Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.
