Matt Levy - leadership and inclusion

00:06 S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

00:16 S2

Hello, I'm Sam.

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And I'm Lizzie.

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And this is Studio 1, your weekly look at life from a low vision and blind point of view. Here on Vision Australia Radio.

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On this week's show...

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We're joined by an old friend of the show, Matt Levy talks about his retirement from Paralympic sport, what he has been doing since then, and the two e-books he has released that cover leadership and inclusion.

00:39 S3

As we always say, please do get in touch with the show whether you have any experience with the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or if you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know - your story and insight may help someone who's dealing with something similar.

00:54 S2

Please email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org -  that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

01:00 S3

Or perhaps you can drop us a note on our Facebook page. Just go to facebook.com slash Viva Radio network.

01:08 S2

So. Hello, Lizzie.

01:09 S3

Hello, Sam. How are we today?

01:10 S2

I'm pretty good, but... I was sort of waiting for someone to join me at the... interview that I did yesterday, and... she didn't turn up. I'm a bit disappointed. I feel like some sort of teenage wallflower. What happened? 

01:23 S3

Oh, well, I didn't stand you up on purpose, Sam, my computer completely froze. So, you know, I could log in, and as soon as I logged in, my screen reader just stopped working, and I had no one there to help me at the time. So I am very sorry, I didn't stand you up on purpose. Can you forgive me? Can you ever forgive me?

01:40 S2

I will try. It actually goes to show that no matter how many... adaptations we make, when the adaptation itself stops working, then everything else stops working as well, doesn't it?

01:52 S3

It does, it does. And it's especially worse off when you don't have any sighted assistance.

01:57 S2

Exactly. I mean, it's like the story I heard with... all these fantastic password managers that we've got now. And the trouble is, if you lose the password to your password manager...

02:07 S3

Yeah. I've never had that happen to me, but I could imagine the result could be rather catastrophic.

02:14 S2

But this interview actually wasn't catastrophic. So let us jump in and chat to Matt. Do you mind reading from the headlines, Paralympic Champion's Mission to Empower Leaders and Build Teams that Thrive and Embrace Inclusion? Yes, I'm reading from a press release. Australian Paralympic and leadership advocate Matthew Levy OAM has launched two concise and impactful guides designed to inspire leaders and foster more inclusive workplaces. Now we actually have said Matthew Levy on the line with us. Hello, Matthew or Matt? 

02:53 S4

Hey, yeah, thanks for having me on the show. It's really great to be part of it again.

02:57 S2

We haven't spoken for quite some time. It's been almost, well, just over three years. The last time we spoke was Tokyo. Can you cast your mind back that far, or is it all sort of gone off in a in a fog of, you know, former athlete... dreams?

03:14 S4

Oh, yeah, definitely a long time ago. But, that was my last Paralympic Games... in Tokyo during Covid. So it was interesting times, but, yeah, it was really exciting event. Tokyo Paralympic Games... did really well, won a gold, bronze in my events and yeah, I think I saw probably about another 12 months after that, and finished off at the Commonwealth Games... in 2022, in Birmingham. So, yeah, been a little while... since Tokyo, but... yeah, certainly a lot has happened, with the... two e-books and extend... moving states and, being on a couple of boards, and... bits and pieces, in... personal life as well. So, yeah, it's certainly been an exciting 4 or 3 and a bit years... since then.

04:13 S2

It's, it's been a funny, funny... Paralympic cycle, hasn't it? Because, usually you get the four years, but, we've now had the three years, and I always thought that the time passed so slowly and you'd always seem to find so, so quickly as well. So the Commonwealth Games was your last event, and... how did you go there?

04:32 S4

Yeah, really? Well, I won gold in the 50m freestyle and yeah, it was it was a bit of a surreal experience, Birmingham, in 2022. And yeah, it was it was an exciting event. A really good event from an occlusion perspective because we had... Paralympians and Olympians in the same event.

04:56 S2

That's what's been the find the difference with with the Commonwealth, hasn't it, is that you do get to... intermingle a bit more with the your able bodied athletes. I mean I remember from my time and yes, I used to train alongside a lot of them, but... never the twain should meet if it came to competitions, whereas the Commonwealths are just a little bit different.

05:15 S4

Yeah. There was a... there's a few events scattered throughout the Commonwealth Games that have Paralympians as a part of it, which is really great. Obviously it's not a fully inclusive games. You don't have the thousands and 2000 people that the Paralympics has, but, yeah. You lucky, lucky enough to go to 2018, Gold Coast games and...  Birmingham as well. So yeah, it's really exciting to be part of that. And... to end... my swimming career... at Birmingham and at the Commonwealth Games was pretty exciting as well. To be part of that... integrated event.

05:57 S2

When did the decision come to retire? Was it something that was forced on you, or was it something that we did? Something clicked and say, No, I'm not doing this anymore.

06:05 S4

Yeah. Probably more the click than anything else. I think I got to a point where I'd done everything that I wanted to do. I had achieved everything I wanted to achieve. I wasn't really getting any faster. I was trying to, but not not to be. And I think in a sport like swimming, you need to keep improving. You need to keep getting faster to continue to one make teams and two do well at international events. And, yeah, it just got to a point where... I was working full time. I was training, full time as well. So, I couldn't really do both. I was getting close to the, I think I was 35, 36 years of age. So not young. And, yeah, he kind of had to make had to make that decision, like for myself and personal growth to... whether I throw in the towel, so to speak. And yeah, you need to... progress my corporate career because it got to a point. I couldn't do both.

07:06 S2

Would you be tempted to ever come back again?

07:09 S4

No. Definitely not. I think... I've done my time. I enjoyed what I was doing when I was doing it, and, yeah, I definitely do advisory roles. Board roles, administration type stuff. But, yeah, to actually compete, I'm certainly happy doing 3 or 4 times a week and doing just okay, and then getting out and, enjoying myself as opposed to slogging it out and doing 4 or 5km each, each session twice a day.

07:40 S2

People on the outside don't really understand the degree of commitment that it comes down to, do they? I mean, it's a case of you really have to plan your entire week around training, and that's pretty much the entire year round. You might get lucky to have two weeks off, but otherwise it is very much a full time job.

07:58 S4

Yeah, definitely. It's definitely a full time job. Summer, winter, autumn, spring. And all the months in between. Yeah. You train four hours a day, upwards of five kilometres a session, and then you try and fit in study or maybe a part time or casual job in between. So, yeah, it's very, very full on. I guess it's good preparation for having a family and that kind of stuff as well, because that's always full on as well. But um, yeah, it's definitely a different kind of... business.

08:32 S2

What I've always found the most useful thing that I've taken out of a sporting career is that the thing that the first thing you learn when you have made it in inverted commas, is that there's always an extra gear that you can rely on. So things are going a bit average, and then all of a... sudden the extra gear kicks into place. And I found that so useful in other careers, like what I'm doing now and also in the IT career, is that when you run out of ideas, when things don't seem to be going right, all of a sudden this extra gear comes into place. I mean, have you found the same thing?

09:06 S4

Yeah, definitely. I think when you get in the swing of things, there's definitely other things that you could think about and other avenues that you can... tap into, whether it's in sport or in business or in personal. I think it's always about making the most of the opportunities. And I think that's what we as athletes or former athletes do well, is not look at something straight down the line and say that this is what it is, have a look at it from different angles to kind of make it and glean what we want to get from it... to the best of our ability. And I think, yeah, it's no different in anything else that we do. It's I think the athlete instinct comes out, to play in a lot of other things that we do. And I think not not having... that lifestyle anymore doesn't mean you can't use those skills. And... I think a lot of things that we do is transferable from the sport to other avenues. It's just a matter of finding out how.

10:01 S2

Indeed it's a case of either work around or plow through. That's what I've usually found anyway, with with most things. So let's fast forward a couple of years now and the Paralympic team are on their way to Paris. Was there any any particular feeling that you had when, um, the game started, did you sort of feel like you were missing out on anything, or was was it sort of more a feeling of relief? Oh, thank God I'm not involved in this anymore.

10:27 S4

I think I missed the travel. I missed the trips away and the... opportunity to go to different countries, but... I think I yeah, it got to a point where, yeah, I was really excited to watch them on TV for a change and watch What Australia could do against the rest of the world. Whatever sport it was. And, yeah, just I think the feeling of excitement more than anything else to really kind of see what... Australia could produce, was really the... overall feeling that I had.

11:03 S2

So just to remind the listeners, there you are, actually legally blind. You did not compete as a blind athlete because you... have a physical... classification and a physical condition. Can you remind us what that is?

11:17 S4

Yeah, sure. So I was born... at 25 weeks. I had a bleed on the brain, which caused... cerebral palsy, which is a neurological condition which basically affects my all four limbs. So walking upstairs, diving off blocks, brushing teeth, unscrewing bottles, that kind of stuff isn't easy. And then, yeah, as a consequence of being born early, I also... became vision impaired due to lack of oxygen at first. So for me, I can see. I guess it's tunnel vision, essentially. So I've got no peripheral vision. I can see about two metres or so centrally. So, yeah, not a great deal of sight, but not... that limiting either. So yeah, make do with what I've got.

12:05 S2

Well, so you've got... a mixture of things though. So in some ways, I mean, yeah, we... view life from a low vision and blind point of view, but, ou can... view life from a cerebral palsy point of view as well, which... is that a benefit or is that a... you know, a hassle - or I mean, how do you feel about your lot in life as far as that goes?

12:27 S4

I never really thought about it. I think it is what it is. And I guess you make do with what you've got. I think, yeah, some things aren't easy. Like, the swimming side of things isn't the easiest. Um, trying to coordinate your arms and legs when they when they weren't really coordinate, and then trying to see where the wall is isn't easy. And then, yeah, flip side of it as well, trying to walk upstairs when you can't really see the stairs, but you can't really grip... what you're doing either. So yeah, it's a bit of a double edged sword, but, yeah, you make do with what you've got. And yeah, for me, it's... I've really never kind of thought about it as I've got less than anyone else or I've or I'm worse off or anything like that. It's just what I've been dealt and... yeah, just take it as it comes.

13:15 S2

So since you've retired, you haven't just sat around and enjoyed the... lack of training, you've actually been rather busy. What have you been up to since then? 

13:25 S4

Yeah. So since 2022, I've written two e-books... on leadership and culture. So they were to really kind of help companies and businesses understand inclusion and diversity better and giving them practical examples to use in their everyday meetings and everyday life. And yeah, it just worked a lot on inclusion and diversity in the workplace... and more generally, to give people a bit more understanding that it's not just about... a tick box. It's not just about giving people a job or... telling people about something. It's really about making sure that people are adding value to what they're doing. And that's when I guess, the e-books came in. I really wanted to kind of show have a tangible example for people, to really kind of go by, if they didn't know what to look for from a culture or diversity and leadership perspective.

14:30 S1

This is Studio 1 on Vision Australia Radio.

14:35 S2

You've been rather outspoken as regarding the challenges that face people like ourselves. So I'm, don't suppose you brought that outspokenness into these e-books.

14:47 S4

I try not to be too outspoken in the books. It's more about... giving, I guess, my perspective, giving my experience... and people, I guess, can make the judgment as they will. But it's really about... sharing the lessons that I've learned throughout my sport career, but also throughout my life in the workplace as someone with a disability into... a practical book that... you talked about and that I created, a couple of months ago. But yeah, certainly more so using my experience and my lessons than trying to enforce anything on anyone. I think everyone can make their own judgment. It's just about using some of my knowledge and my experience, to better everyone else.

15:34 S2

So what would be the... target audience of these guides?

15:38 S4

I think anyone that wants to know more about diversity and inclusion and culture, I think we all want to know more. We all want to do better. I think whether it's a workplace, whether it's a sporting club, whether it's a community meeting, I think we all do things well. We all do things not so well. And I think... this book just gives you some more food for thought and more practical examples to go by... when you're wanting to have conversations with different people within the community.

16:10 S2

The first book that we talked about was on leadership. Maybe give us a little bit of a potted idea of... what we would have to look forward to if we're reading this.

16:18 S5

Yeah, not to give too much away, but, basically it's about what leadership is and what we can do as leaders of organisations, of leaders of community to be more inclusive, to be more diverse. And it goes into detail about what we can do and some actions we can put into place to have more leadership within... the things that we do. 

16:48 S2

I mean one of the problems I found in the workplace really was, yes, to some degree, you had some good leaders who would ask all the right questions, but it was the people that didn't ask the questions that were often the problem because they were set in their ways and they saw a disability as a hindrance more than anything else. And they didn't see the potential that, again, people like ourselves can actually give to a workplace and a different perspective that we can give. So, I mean, is there anything you think we could do to sort of fix that problem? I mean, would these, this sort of publication be useful even for them?

17:25 S4

Yeah, no, definitely. I think it'd be useful. It just gives a different perspective on what we do. And I think, yeah, it's difficult because... I think what you just relayed is the problem that we have in society and more and more globally around including anyone. And I think it's really the people that I guess don't ask the questions that are, I guess, potentially the problem. But you can't force people to want to change if they don't want to change. And I think it's really about continuing to have that conversation and just be positive about what we can do and how we can kind of move the dial and... yeah, just hope, that people will come to their senses, eventually. And yeah, it's a difficult, difficult topic. 

And, I think part of the books and part of what I'm trying to do is really kind of raise awareness of these topics and making sure that we are moving in a forward direction and in 12 months time, when I'm talking to you on the show, hopefully we're not talking about the same thing.

18:38 S2

Well, yeah, I did say to you, previously on... I did notice that... you did spend a bit of time on the board of Blind Sports Australia, and that is... a fascinating organisation in the fact that quite often things don't move very quickly over there. You left recently. Was there a particular reason for that, or.... did you feel like you'd... achieved all you had to, with... national blind sports?

19:05 S4

Yeah, I think it was more... about right time, right place. I think, for me, I spent three or three and a half years on the... board. We'd achieved a lot. It was going through a lot of change at the time, and, yeah, I just felt that I had done as much as I can. And, at that particular time, I'm getting married. I just moved states. So a lot of other stuff personally was going on. So I felt it was like kind of the right time to kind of step away for that type of a board. And, yeah, I really enjoyed my time, learned a lot of skills and gained a lot of new friends and... learned a lot.

My thing is, I felt this time, yeah, my my thing is, I mean, I've been involved with a number of different... boards, both on the state level and a national level. And there reaches a point, I think, as a retired athlete, you might understand this, where you get all sported out of things, where you think My God, yeah. I've done this for however long in my life, and I think I'll just give it a rest for a little while and suddenly you're sort of on a board and it's like I'm doing the same stuff, just on a different side. I'm presuming you feel roughly the same way.

20:20 S2

Yeah, definitely.

20:21 S4

I think, yeah, sometimes you need to kind of take a step back to take a step forward. And, I think for me sometimes that that's the best thing, because you can have a look with... eyes wide open instead of rosy colored glasses. And, I think, yeah, it's important to be the influence of change, not the hindrance of it. And, you don't want to be that one person that is set in their ways, like you were saying about your, your diversity example. But, you want to be able to continue to grow and evolve. And I think part of that is stepping back from things that you really enjoy, and things that you might have done for a long time, to be able to step forward.

21:05 S2

Yeah, indeed. So, I'll remind our listeners what Blind Sports Australia is: the old Blind Sports Federation. It is the national peak body that looks after sport for people with a vision impairment. It used to have a much larger role. It used to organise national championships and select teams. It's now essentially just the go to for sports like goalball and others which don't have a generic sporting body. What do you feel you achieved during your period there? Is it something you can talk about?

21:36 S4

I think for me, I feel I gave a more inclusive way of thinking in an inclusive way of talking. I think for me, I was the only athlete on the board and the only person with a vision impairment or that were blind. So, I guess from my lived experience perspective, and that sport perspective, I had a lot to offer. And I think, yeah, my perspective and my understanding of topics and of... issues was probably slightly different to the average. And I guess I had kind of backed that up with some business acronym and knowhow, which was good. But yeah, to have I guess that lived experience perspective was really good and really pivotal. And yeah, I felt that that kind of helped shape some of the decisions that we made through the board and and into the executive and, yeah, hopefully, onwards and upwards for the, the executive and the... board, Blind Sports Australia and yeah, definitely really enjoyed my time and... definitely learned a lot.

22:42 S2

So we'll move on to the second guidebook. So can you give us any insights without giving away too many? I mean, we obviously we want people to read these things.

22:51 S4

Yeah. So the first one I think was the the lazy one and the second one, remind me the title of that one? That was...

22:58 S2

Yeah. Culture Inclusive.

22:59 S4

Inclusive culture, culture inclusiveness. Yeah. So I think with this one it's... more about ingraining the culture and ingraining the belief in the organisation. And it just gives, I guess, a bit of experience and understanding from things that I've learned throughout my life, and things that I've learned throughout... my sport that I've deemed as good culture and... good practice. I think a lot of organisations and sporting clubs and community groups, we all think that we're doing things well and think we're doing things a certain way. And I think it's looking at it from that high performance lens and looking at it from a lens of, Are we giving that... 100%, as are we continually giving that 100% to what we're doing? And are we bringing people, I guess, along that journey? 

And I think the book really kind of talks to culture and inclusion, but, kind of making sure that everyone kind of is on that journey and making sure that we are continuing to have that narrative of, there's no I in team and making sure that we are continuing to breed good culture through Teamwork and team effort, and I think the books pretty much go hand in hand. But, they both kind of tell a slightly different story. But, I think reading both of them is definitely pivotal to kind of understanding the whole message. But, yeah, if you don't have time, then, one is still good to read than none. But two two is a lot better to read than... just one. Two.

24:45 S2

What I found interesting about what you're talking about with... changing... well, looking at the culture of a workplace or a training environment is, sometimes it's us ourselves that can be the... barrier to somebody else... succeeding. So we can be convinced that, yes, we are inclusive and we are doing a really great job of... being inclusive. And yet there's something we haven't thought about, and I think it pays to keep listening as far as that kind of thing goes, because you never know, your inclusivity that suits you might not suit somebody else.

25:18 S4

Yeah, definitely. I think it's really about like listening to your colleagues, listening to people as well as, um, I guess talking the talk as well. I think we are all in this world together. We are all human beings at the end of the day. So it's just really about making sure that we're listening to each other to continue to move forward. And yeah, that's definitely what I guess the books are trying to kind of articulate in some way, shape or form. And yeah, it's... definitely important to be on the journey together.

25:50 S2

So before we go so apart from uh, and only swing occasionally and, uh, writing e-books, what is your... week consisting of at the moment? I mean, how busy are you?

26:02 S4

Yeah. So I have... I got married about a year and a half ago, so... I've got that. And that's an adventure in itself. Yeah, adventure and a half. And then we've got a, just turned one, a little boy, Percy. So he's... keeping us on our toes. And apart from that, I do some consulting work, around around diversity and inclusion and... talk to great people like yourself. So pretty busy.

26:31 S2

So if people want to... read these e-books, how do we get a hold of them?

26:36 S4

Yeah. So they're on my website, uh, which is what, Matt Levy dot com dot AU. And, yeah, they can... purchase them from my website and, yeah, view them from there as well.

26:51 S2

Matt Levy, thank you for joining us today. It has been an awful lot of fun, and it's nice to see that the world doesn't keep... doesn't stand still for yourself. We look forward to hearing from you in the future.

27:04 S4

{?]... thanks so much for having me as part of the show. And... hopefully the listeners enjoy the books.

27:11 S3

That's a wrap for this week.

27:12 S2

A big thank you once more to Matt Levy.

27:15 S3

And thank you for listening. As usual, you can find this episode on Apple, Spotify, Google or your favorite podcast platform.

27:23 S2

Next week, have you been refused access to a rideshare or taxi because of your guide dog?

27:28 S3

I certainly am.

27:29 S2

We look at the experiences of some of our friends, and also look at what one taxi company is doing to try and combat the problem.

27:36 S3

But between now and then, please do get in touch with the show whether you have any experience with the issues covered on this week's episode of Studio 1, or whether you think there's something we should be talking about, you never know - your story and insight may help someone who is dealing with something similar.

27:51 S2

You can email us, studio1@visionaustralia.org - that's studio number one at Vision Australia dot org.

27:57 S3

Or you can look us up on social media, whether that be Facebook, Instagram or just search for VA Radio Network. Bye for now.

28:06 S1

Vision Australia Radio gratefully acknowledges the support of the Community Broadcasting Foundation for Studio 1.